Posted on 06/03/2005 9:22:21 PM PDT by GOPmember
What We have Lost
...and the Road to Restoration
A critical look at the changes in the Catholic Church
This video gives you an intimate, up-close look at the destructive and wide-spread changes that have taken place in the two-thousand-year-old Catholic Church since the close of the Second Vatican Council in 1965.
Much of what you see will surprise you, maybe even shock you, and -- unfortunately -- will sadden you. "What We Have Lost" not ony exposes the external damage that has been done to the Universal Church, but goes deep behind the scenes to reveal the hidden changes; how and when they were made; and who made them.
This video asks the hard questions: Is the Church still Catholic? Has She lost the true faith? Does the clergy still truly "believe?" Can we count on today's Church to lead us to salvation? The answers found in "What We Have Lost" may bring you to anger -- or to tears. But after you see it, you will never look at the "modern" Church in the same way again.
And "What We Have Lost" is about hope. Hope in Jesus Christ and His one true Church on earth. Plus it's about the restoration of the traditional Latin Mass and the "Faith of our Fathers;" and it documents the groundswell of traditionalism within the Church, and how you can be a part of it...on the "Road to Restoration."
O my God, who are infallible Truth and can neither deceive nor be deceived, I firmly believe all that you have revealed and propose to my belief through your holy Church, because you have revealed it. I believe that you are one in nature and three in Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that you are the Creator of all things and that you reward the just for all eternity in heaven and punish the wicked for all eternity in hell. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God made man, that he suffered and died for my sins and rose from the dead in glory, and that it is only in him through the Holy Spirit that eternal life is given to men. I believe in fine all that your holy Church believes. I thank you for having called me to the true faith, and I protest that with the help of your grace I will live and die in this holy faith.
From the Handbook of Indulgences.
I was going to respond, too, but after reading yours, I realized you said it all for me. Thanks.
You ask a good question, and the reply (post #41 by gbcdoj) is a good answer.
It seems to me that what you ask could also use the additional teaching of the Church regarding one's death, that one must accept his final moments of trial as just punishment for his sins. Protestants have great difficulty with this doctrine, since it involves the spirit of penance. One's last moments of life are so important because that is the time that the devil goes all out to deceive him into some kind of mortal sin, such as despair. That is why living your whole life with the resolution to not hate pain but rather to embrace it as a means for purifying one's soul, is an invaluable habit to have at hand when it comes to dying well. Now don't misunderstand me by thinking that going around finding ways to torture yourself is expected of Catholics. We have to be reasonable, especially in this modern age.
This is not an easy topic to cover in a few words, so I'll go rather than bore you.
My post had to do with the erroneous idea that restoring the old liturgy would be a panacea. I cited Trent to remind those tempted to embrace the idea I just noted that no Liturgy is a panacea.
Your hatred of the Traditional Mass is both illogical and hypocritical when you try to set it in the context of "turning the clock back". I suppose you are also more Catholic than the Pope who has gone on record several times saying that the result of the post-conciliar attempts to turn the clock back has been a "banal on the spot product" which was "fabricated by committee"?
I have no hatred of the old Liturgy. I was raised in the old Liturgy and I loved it. I still do. I love every Liturgy our Holy Mother Church has approved for use. As I say, I was raised in the old Liturgy. I have attended the Divine Liturgy of the Maronites. I have attended the Divine Liturgy of the Ruthians. I now, exclusively, attend the Pauline Rite. In my mind, all Liturgues/Services/Masses/Divine Liturgies etc are, in their essence, the action of Jesus offering Himself (a Priest and victim) to God on our behalf and so I consider that we have always had only one Mass, one Liturgy since the Last Supper; different Rites, yes; different Liturgies in which the Mass is anchored, yes. But only one Mass.
So, there is no way I would harbor hatred for any Mass. While it is true I prefer the Pauline Rite, if I were to attent the Indult I would feel perfectly at home and know the responses by heart. But I consider Mass in the vernacular to be a great blessing and right for our time.
One reason I stopped assisting at the Indult was my wife pointed out to me the rather haughty and self-righteous attitude which permeated the sermons of the Priest who offered the Indult. I really didn't want to face the matter but she was right. I began to listen more closely and it was clear he considered "us" more faithful and orthodox Catholics than "they" who accepted the Pauline Rite. Of course, I don't think that way and I found the atmosphere among the "theys" to be more Christian. I still have long-lasting friendships with those who exclusively attend the Indult and they are, to a man, men of character and charity and compassion. But clearly the Priest had an issue and that particular Indult tended to inculcate a Fortress "us" (traditionalist) Church vs a "them" (those like me who accepted Vatican Two and all the supposedly unorthodox approaces to Christians of other faiths) probably unorthodox attitude.
My current Pastor is brilliant, orthodox, inspiring and has converted literally hundreds of Christians and, at last count, 7 Jews.
As to my "venom, bile, and condemnation", I simply reject that characterization out of hand. There is no doubt I fulfill my Confirmational Duty to defend the Faith against those who, daily, attack it because it does not match their personal preferences, prejudices, and programs. I don't see the church returning to the 16th Century but I don't respond in that way because I reject or hate the Old Roman Missal. You conflate and confuse the issues into "hatred" I am afraid. And that is not up to your usually very high standards
I harbor no anomosity towards you. Just the opposite. I consider you to be right at the top of the Christians in here when it comes to knowledge of the Faith, intellect etc etc and I have learned a lot from you. And I pray, daily (it is part of my Rosary Intention) for the schism to be healed and I love and support the Indult. (I continue to send money to the FSSP. I have for years. I have met and spoken at length with Fr. Devillers). However,I do not expect the schism to be healed. That would take a miracle; thus the prayer.
It would seem that the Pope's view of the new liturgy has much more in common with that of the SSPX than it does with yours!
Certainly Pope Benedict is our sweet Jesus on earth (as St. Catherine of Sienna said about a Pope back in the day) and I consider us blessed to have him as Pope. When it comes to abuses in the Pauline Rite he and I are in perfect harmony. When it comes to the Pauline Rite and the New Missal, he and I are in perfct harmony.
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger: The Feast of Faith: Approaches to a Theology of the Liturgy
Those who cling to the "Tridentine Missal" have a faulty view of the historical facts. Yet at the same time, the way in which the renewed Missal was presented is open to much criticism. We must say to the "Tridentines" that the Church’s liturgy is alive, like the Church herself, and is thus always involved in a process of maturing which exhibits greater and lesser changes. Four hundred years is far too young an age for the Catholic liturgy - because in fact it reaches right back to Christ and the apostles and has come down to us from that time in a single, constant process. The Missal can no more be mummified than the Church herself.
"Yet, with all its advantages, the new Missal was published as if it were a book put together by professors, not a phase in a continual grown process. Such a thing has never happened before. It is absolutely contrary to the laws of liturgical growth, and it has resulted in the nonsensical notion that Trent and Pius V had "produced" a Missal four hundred years ago. The Catholic liturgy was thus reduced to the level of a mere product of modern times. This loss of perspective is really disturbing.
"Although very few of those who express their uneasiness have a clear picture of these interrelated factors, there is an instinctive grasp of the fact that liturgy cannot be the result of Church regulations, let alone professional erudition, but, to be true to itself, must be the fruit of the Church’s life and vitality.
"Lest there be any misunderstanding, let me add that as far as its contents is concerned (apart from a few criticisms), I am very grateful for the new Missal, for the way it has enriched the treasury of prayers and prefaces, for the new eucharistic prayers and the increased number of texts for use on weekdays, etc., quite apart from the availability of the vernacular. But I do regard it as unfortunate that we have been presented with the idea of a new book rather with that of continuity within a single liturgical history.
end of quote<>
I have been alive since before Pope Pius XII died and I love all of the Popes (including Pius) we have had since him. I think we have been extraordinarily blessed with these amazing Popes. While I have witnessed other major denominations change doctrine and become radacalized and politicized I have seen our Holy Fathers guide us safely through troubled waters admist vast and enormous and radical changes. Thanks be to God we have a sweet Jesus on Earth like Pope Benedict, the man I prayed would suceed John Paul the Great. "In my view, a new edition will need to make it quite clear that the so-called Missal of Paul VI is nothing other than a renewed form of the same Missal to which Pius X, Urban VIII, Pius V and their predecessors have contributed, right from the Church’s earliest history. It is of the very essence of the Church that she should be aware of her unbroken continuity throughout the history of faith, expressed in an ever-present unity of prayer. [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger: The Feast of Faith: Approaches to a Theology of the Liturgy Ignatius Press, San Francisco, Ca, pgs. 86-87 (c. 1986)]
Oops, forgot to ping you to post #44
The FFSP priests are not vagus clergy
There have always been problems with Liturgical Music as our resident expert, Ninenot, reminds us.
* Ut oh, another job of poor editing by me
LOL I can imagine. Were it even possible to do so, a trip back to the 16th Century would take an awful lot of gas.
I want no part in a liturgy put together by six Protestants and a Masonic priest, (Bugnini). So even though they removed everything offensive to Protestants, they succeeded in making it offensive to many Catholics.
"THE MASS IS THE SAME"
Address of Pope Paul VI to a General Audience, November 19, 1969
Our Dear Sons and Daughters:
1. We wish to draw your attention to an event about to occur in the Latin Catholic Church: the introduction of the liturgy of the new rite of the Mass. It will become obligatory in Italian dioceses from the First Sunday of Advent, which this year falls on November 30. The Mass will be celebrated in a rather different manner from that in which we have been accustomed to celebrate it in the last four centuries, from the reign of St. Pius V, after the Council of Trent, down to the present.
2. This change has something astonishing about it, something extraordinary. This is because the Mass is regarded as the traditional and untouchable expression of our religious worship and the authenticity of our faith. We ask ourselves, how could such a change be made? What effect will it have on those who attend Holy Mass? Answers will be given to these questions, and to others like them, arising from this innovation. You will hear the answers in all the Churches. They will be amply repeated there and in all religious publications, in all schools where Christian doctrine is taught. We exhort you to pay attention to them. In that way you will be able to get a clearer and deeper idea of the stupendous and mysterious notion of the Mass.
3. But in this brief and simple discourse We will try only to relieve your minds of the first, spontaneous difficulties which this change arouses. We will do so in relation to the first three questions which immediately occur to mind because of it.
4. How could such a change be made? Answer: It is due to the will expressed by the Ecumenical Council held not long ago. The Council decreed: "The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, can be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful can be more easily accomplished.
5. "For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, while due care is taken to preserve their substance. Elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded. Where opportunity allows or necessity demands, other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the earlier norm of the Holy Fathers" (Sacrosanctum Concilium #50).
6. The reform which is about to be brought into being is therefore a response to an authoritative mandate from the Church. It is an act of obedience. It is an act of coherence of the Church with herself. It is a step forward for her authentic tradition. It is a demonstration of fidelity and vitality, to which we all must give prompt assent.
7. It is not an arbitrary act. It is not a transitory or optional experiment. It is not some dilettante's improvisation. It is a law. It has been thought out by authoritative experts of sacred Liturgy; it has been discussed and meditated upon for a long time. We shall do well to accept it with joyful interest and put it into practice punctually, unanimously and carefully.
8. This reform puts an end to uncertainties, to discussions, to arbitrary abuses. It calls us back to that uniformity of rites and feeling proper to the Catholic Church, the heir and continuation of that first Christian community, which was all "one single heart and a single soul" (Acts 4:32). The choral character of the Church's prayer is one of the strengths of her unity and her catholicity. The change about to be made must not break up that choral character or disturb it. It ought to confirm it and make it resound with a new spirit, the spirit of her youth.
9. The second question is: What exactly are the changes?
10. You will see for yourselves that they consist of many new directions for celebrating the rites. Especially at the beginning, these will call for a certain amount of attention and care. Personal devotion and community sense will make it easy and pleasant to observe these new rules. But keep this clearly in mind: Nothing has been changed of the substance of our traditional Mass. Perhaps some may allow themselves to be carried away by the impression made by some particular ceremony or additional rubric, and thus think that they conceal some alteration or diminution of truths which were acquired by the Catholic faith for ever, and are sanctioned by it. They might come to believe that the equation between the law of prayer, lex orandi and the law of faith, lex credendi, is compromised as a result.
11. It is not so. Absolutely not. Above all, because the rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition. Their theological qualification may vary in different degrees according to the liturgical context to which they refer. They are gestures and terms relating to a religious action--experienced and living--of an indescribable mystery of divine presence, not always expressed in a universal way. Only theological criticism can analyze this action and express it in logically satisfying doctrinal formulas. The Mass of the new rite is and remains the same Mass we have always had. If anything, its sameness has been brought out more clearly in some respects.
12. The unity of the Lord's Supper, of the Sacrifice on the cross of the re-presentation and the renewal of both in the Mass, is inviolably affirmed and celebrated in the new rite just as they were in the old. The Mass is and remains the memorial of Christ's Last Supper. At that Supper the Lord changed the bread and wine into His Body and His Blood, and instituted the Sacrifice of the New Testament. He willed that the Sacrifice should be identically renewed by the power of His Priesthood, conferred on the Apostles. Only the manner of offering is different, namely, an unbloody and sacramental manner; and it is offered in perennial memory of Himself, until His final return (cf. De la Taille, Mysterium Fidei, Elucd. IX).
13. In the new rite you will find the relationship between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, strictly so called, brought out more clearly, as if the latter were the practical response to the former (cf. Bonyer). You will find how much the assembly of the faithful is called upon to participate in the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice, and how in the Mass they are and fully feel themselves "the Church." You will also see other marvelous features of our Mass. But do not think that these things are aimed at altering its genuine and traditional essence.
14. Rather try to see how the Church desires to give greater efficacy to her liturgical message through this new and more expansive liturgical language; how she wishes to bring home the message to each of her faithful, and to the whole body of the People of God, in a more direct and pastoral way.
15. In like manner We reply to the third question: What will be the results of this innovation? The results expected, or rather desired, are that the faithful will participate in the liturgical mystery with more understanding, in a more practical, a more enjoyable and a more sanctifying way. That is, they will hear the Word of God, which lives and echoes down the centuries and in our individual souls; and they will likewise share in the mystical reality of Christ's sacramental and propitiatory sacrifice.
16. So do not let us talk about "the new Mass." Let us rather speak of the "new epoch" in the Church's life.
With Our Apostolic Benediction.
end of quote
It appears you consider the Divinely Established Authority unworthy of your obdeience. C'est la vie. What does the Pope know anyhow? Who died, resurrected and made him the one with supreme authority anyhow?
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven
Are you saying he attends a NO Mass? Then he formally renounces Satan every Easter, at the renewal of baptismal vows.
My post had to do with the erroneous idea that restoring the old liturgy would be a panacea.
I agree, it is not a cure-all. But it would be a giant step in the direction of understanding the traditional faith and consequently, catechesis.
I have no hatred of the old Liturgy.
I have not sensed any hatred coming from you, sorry if others get that impression.
One reason I stopped assisting at the Indult was my wife pointed out to me the rather haughty and self-righteous attitude which permeated the sermons of the Priest who offered the Indult. I really didn't want to face the matter but she was right. I began to listen more closely and it was clear he considered "us" more faithful and orthodox Catholics than "they" who accepted the Pauline Rite.
I do not doubt it. If you draw no distinction between the two liturgies then of course there is no reason for an us/them dichotomy. However, the traditionalists have been given the shaft since Vatican II for no reason and with a cavalier disregard by the "progressives". They don't have to be haughty, they won the battle. The NO liturgy is everywhere the norm and one struggles to find an indult or resigns themselves to the SSPX or worse. Where is the charity in the Church for the traditionalist? They feel persecuted because they are. The church occasionally will pay them lip service but her heart is far from them.
I don't see the church returning to the 16th Century but I don't respond in that way because I reject or hate the Old Roman Missal. You conflate and confuse the issues into "hatred" I am afraid.
Again, I do not understand you equating the 1962 missal with the 1500's. I suppose it is this rhetoric that may lead some to believe that you are being contemptuous of your more traditional brethren.
Thanks for the kind words and the cautions, Trad...They are heard and understood, brother
This is not to pile on, but I want to revisit this problem of the haughty indult priest whose uncharity drove you to the N.O. I'm sure there must be many such. But we both know the corresponding disdain that's at least as common on the N.O. side of the equation -- more probably, since most diocesan indult priests also celebrate the N.O. routinely and can't disparage it without making fools and hyprocrites of themselves -- yet I don't sense that for that reason you'll be ricocheting back into the old rite anytime soon.
This is not to charge you with hypocrisy; you are entitled to your preference of whatever licit rite is available to you. But maybe it can't hurt to observe that the Church gets a great deal of her work done by silly fools, and that unlike protestants, Catholics are keenly aware that their liturgy is about a great deal more than the charm and learning of its ministers. In your choice of rite, I encourage you to discern some ecclesial or sacramental impulse larger than the self-regarding and spiritually risky stance of purely personal criteria, whether positive ("they have a great organist") or negative ("that priest is a jerk").
"like manner We reply to the third question: What will be the results of this innovation? The results expected, or rather desired, are that the faithful will participate in the liturgical mystery with more understanding, in a more practical, a more enjoyable and a more sanctifying way. That is, they will hear the Word of God, which lives and echoes down the centuries and in our individual souls; and they will likewise share in the mystical reality of Christ's sacramental and propitiatory sacrifice"
What will be the results, indeed. Attendance down from 75 percent to 18 percent. In Europe down to single digets.
Results like this with circuses like world youth day will giarantee even worse. The bottom has not been hit yet.
Church attendance down to 25% of what it used to be.
you have me on that one. I must admit that atteddance has never been higher.
you have me on that one. I must admit that attendance has never been higher. I concede..
You've heard him do this?
Must we hear this over and over again? Since when have Protestants not been opposed to the doctrine of the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice to be offered for the living and the dead, or the practice of the Invocation of Saints, or Transubstantiation, etc.? Would you like to explain how a Protestant could use, say, Lauda Sion in good conscience? - and yes, that's still right there in the Gradual. Do Protestants now confess their sins to the saints, or declare they offer a sacrifice for the pardon of sins? I have always thought that general Protestant belief was decidedly against such practices, but perhaps you can enlighten me. Do Protestants now approve of such prayers as the following (from the Missal "put together by six Protestants and a Masonic priest" - since you probably can't read Latin, I've translated for you)?
Hostiam tibi placationis offerimus, Domine,
suppliciter deprecantes,
ut, Deiparae virginis beatique Ioseph interveniente suffragio,
familias nostras in tua gratia firmiter et pace constituas.We offer to thee a sacrifice of appeasement, O Lord, bending down suppliantly, so that, by the intervening suffrage of the virgin Mother of God and the blessed Joseph, thou mayest constitute our families firmly in thy grace and peace. (Super oblata, Feast of the Holy Family)
Ecclesiae tuae, quaesumus, Domine, dona propitius intuere,
quibus non iam aurum, thus et myrrha profertur,
sed quod eisdem muneribus declaratur, immolatur et sumitur,
Iesus Christus.We beg thee, O Lord, gaze down more propitiously on the gifts of thy Church, in which gold, francincense, and myrrh are no longer brought forth, but what in these same gifts is declared, immolated and received, Jesus Christ. (Super oblata, Epiphany)
Suscipe munera, Domine,
in dilecti Filii tui revelatione delata,
ut fidelium tuorum oblatio in eius sacrificium transeat,
qui mundi voluit peccata miseratus abluere.Receive these gifts, O Lord, brought in the revelation of thy beloved Son, that the oblation of thy faithful may transform into his sacrifice, who, having pity, willed to wash away the sins of the world. (Super oblata, Baptism of the Lord)
Concede nobis, quaesumus, Domine, haec digne frequentare mysteria, quia, quoties huius hostiae commemoratio celebratur, opus nostrae redemptionis exercetur.
We beg thee, O Lord, concede to us to frequent worthily these mysteries, since, as often as the commemoration of this victim is celebrated, the work of our redemption is carried out. (Super oblata, 2nd Sunday of Ordinary Time)
Munera nostra, Domine, suscipe placatus,
quae sanctificando nobis, quaesumus,
salutaria fore concede.Appeased, receive our gifts, O Lord, which, we beg, by sanctifying for us, grant to be saving things. (Super oblata, 3rd Sunday of Ordinary Time)
Altaribus tuis, Domine, munera nostrae servitutis inferimus,
quae, placatus assumens,
sacramentum nostrae redemptionis efficias.We bring in to thy altars, O Lord, the gifts of our service, which, taking them up appeased, thou makest into the sacrament of our redemption. (Super oblata, 4th Sunday of Ordinary Time)
Notice a pattern? No Protestant could say those prayers, and they were all published in the "liturgy put together by six Protestants and a Masonic priest". "[W]hat in these same gifts is declared, immolated and received, Jesus Christ" - inoffensive to Protestants? Give me a break.
Hint: you might have better luck criticizing the ICEL-translated liturgy which DOES water down Catholic doctrine. It was not, however, written by your evil boogeymen, the "six Protestants and a Masonic priest".
*excellent observation. While I prefer the Pauline Rite (for many reasons), were Pope Benedict, our sweet Jesus on Earth, to make the 1962 Roman Missal normative, I 'd happily decamp there and thank the Good Lord, as I do everyday, that I have easy access to the Sacraments. To me, we have always had only one Mass; different Rites; different Liturgies in which the action of Jesus is anchored; but one Mass since the Last Supper.
I'll admit I am a lucky man. My Pastor's Masses are solemn, serious and authentic.
This is not to charge you with hypocrisy; you are entitled to your preference of whatever licit rite is available to you. But maybe it can't hurt to observe that the Church gets a great deal of her work done by silly fools, and that unlike protestants, Catholics are keenly aware that their liturgy is about a great deal more than the charm and learning of its ministers. In your choice of rite, I encourage you to discern some ecclesial or sacramental impulse larger than the self-regarding and spiritually risky stance of purely personal criteria, whether positive ("they have a great organist") or negative ("that priest is a jerk").
* :) Well, if that isn't already clear from what I have written in these threads then I will have to do better. Where I used to live I considered Sunday Mass a virtual Calvary due to the personal choices, contrary to the Living Magisterium, made by the various Pauline Rite priests saying the Masses. The Liturgy was the personal playground of prideful priests yet the Mass was of incalcuable value because of the action of Jesus.
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