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To: biblewonk

One does this by simply holding in his or her heart that the Blessed Virgin Mary was set aside by God to be the mother of Christ; that she was conceived but preserved from Original Sin (she was saved by Christ - Christ is indeed her Savior!); that she is not divine in any way shape or manner, but the most perfect HUMAN creation (the perfect Christian!); that she deserves our honor (not worship) and prayers (because she is her Son's greatest intercessor).

No one is REQUIRED to say the rosary or a single Hail Mary as a means of salvation. These prayers are humble outpourings of our joys and sorrow and a means of honoring the Son by honoring His mother. The Blessed Mother, in turn, as the highest of saints, essentially (if you'll pardon the expression) "Super-Sizes" our petitions before the Father, supplementing in PERFECT prayer, what we have begun in our most IMPERFECT ways. The Blessed Mother would have that not a single Hail Mary be said if she could not bring the person closer to Christ than humanly possible. Like our conversation here, what begins with Mary ends with Christ.

You and I could certainly pray directly to God alone. Most certainly we could. But neither you or I or anyone else have the words to describe heaven. Likewise none of us wallowing here in sin can adequately express the longings of our souls when we are shrouded by the flesh. By petitioning Mary (and the saints) to assist us in our prayers, the wants and needs and sorrows and joys of our souls are clearly expressed before the Heavenly Father.

Thus, we are not worshiping Mary by any stretch. I am worshiping the Father with the help of Mary because I cannot even FATHOM how to worship the Father in a fashion that is worthy and just. In her charitable, immaculate heart, Mary quietly shows us how to worship her Son.


1,172 posted on 05/19/2005 8:19:12 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever
You and I could certainly pray directly to God alone. Most certainly we could. But neither you or I or anyone else have the words to describe heaven. Likewise none of us wallowing here in sin can adequately express the longings of our souls when we are shrouded by the flesh. By petitioning Mary (and the saints) to assist us in our prayers, the wants and needs and sorrows and joys of our souls are clearly expressed before the Heavenly Father.

Scripture indicates that this is the ministry of the Holy Spirit ...

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1,173 posted on 05/19/2005 8:53:55 AM PDT by Quester (When in doubt ... trust God!)
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To: Rutles4Ever
One does this by simply holding in his or her heart that the Blessed Virgin Mary was set aside by God to be the mother of Christ; that she was conceived but preserved from Original Sin (she was saved by Christ - Christ is indeed her Savior!); that she is not divine in any way shape or manner, but the most perfect HUMAN creation (the perfect Christian!); that she deserves our honor (not worship) and prayers (because she is her Son's greatest intercessor).

I don't believe that she was preserved from original sin at all. So would I have to be condidered a heathen? I don't believe she was the most perfect human especially since the Bible says John the Baptist is better. I don't believe that she interceeds with her Son. So I must not have her as my mother, therefore, according to DeMontfort and others I am not a Christian. Now, there is nothing in the bible that said I had to do these things but only in the RCC therefore by not accepting things that are not in the bible but in the RCC, I am not able to be saved.

No one is REQUIRED to say the rosary or a single Hail Mary as a means of salvation. These prayers are humble outpourings of our joys and sorrow and a means of honoring the Son by honoring His mother. The Blessed Mother, in turn, as the highest of saints, essentially (if you'll pardon the expression) "Super-Sizes" our petitions before the Father, supplementing in PERFECT prayer, what we have begun in our most IMPERFECT ways. The Blessed Mother would have that not a single Hail Mary be said if she could not bring the person closer to Christ than humanly possible. Like our conversation here, what begins with Mary ends with Christ.

The bible says the Holy Spirit helps us in our prayers but it doesn't say Mary does. How do you know she feels that way?

You and I could certainly pray directly to God alone. Most certainly we could. But neither you or I or anyone else have the words to describe heaven. Likewise none of us wallowing here in sin can adequately express the longings of our souls when we are shrouded by the flesh. By petitioning Mary (and the saints) to assist us in our prayers, the wants and needs and sorrows and joys of our souls are clearly expressed before the Heavenly Father.

So praying to the Father in the name of the Son is weaker than praying through Mary because of our sinful condition. She is mediator.

Thus, we are not worshiping Mary by any stretch. I am worshiping the Father with the help of Mary because I cannot even FATHOM how to worship the Father in a fashion that is worthy and just. In her charitable, immaculate heart, Mary quietly shows us how to worship her Son.

The bible says that God wants us to worship us in Spirit and Truth. You are saying we can't worship Him in the way He seeks but it requires Mary to translate our feelings into proper worship?

1,177 posted on 05/19/2005 10:22:16 AM PDT by biblewonk (Socialism isn't all bad.)
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