Posted on 05/04/2005 10:53:04 AM PDT by Quix
AMEN! BROTHER! PREACH IT!
THEYUNS CUN HAVE CHURCH!!!! SHOUT TUH GLORY!
PRAISE GOD! 2 OR 3
and not a one of them has to be draped about in embroidered-with-gold-thread-finery and other pontifications so consistently loved by INSTITUTIONS.
In my experience and observations, there's a more reliable way to guesstimate:
Their fruits.
Those with a genuine heart after God seem to persistently tend to grow toward
LOVING GOD WHOLLY;
THEIR NEIGHBORS AND OTHERS AS THEMSELVES
AND TO DO UNTO OTHERS AS THEY'D WISH DONE UNTO THEMSELVES.
Which, now that I think of it, seems to be a very rare phenomena the older and larger and more fossilized INSTITUTIONAL expressions of Christianity are.
Not at all.
But I, at least, am saying that I strongly suspect that God's priorities in such matters are rather different from yours.
Organization etc. can become even very NECESSARY.
But it's not to be the focus. You seem to have made it your focus.
NECESSARY . . .
ALMOST
as in necessary evil.
GOD INSISTS ON INTIMATE DIALOGUE WITH EACH BELIEVER. Institutions tend to muddy that, water it down and obstruct it rather than aid it as they were supposed to do.
Is that what James and Peter were discussing when they met in Jerusalem to consider the circumcision?
Was that what Paul was doing when he was carefully instructing the Corinthians on church decorum?
Were they just talking instead of walking?
No, they were dealing with the nitty-gritty, day-to-day business of spreading the good news.
In order for M ary to learn at the Lord's feet, Martha has to do the housekeeping.
RELATIONSHIP vs RELIGION
You seem to be creating dichotomies where they do not exist. A relationship is based on love, and love consists of doing all the little things that need doing.
And
"nothing to do with"
is a bald faced falsehood.
IF Holy Spirit is at all in the institutional church THEN the same Holy Spirit out in the hinterlands, trails, tree houses etc. of jungles, and other rural areas is leading people closer to God in both contexts.
And, that's the ONLY important commonality.
The rest is noise or necessary administrivia toward--hopefully toward--getting needs met; workers trained etc. And at worst, it's a LOT worse.
I suspect The Lord is going to teach you some startling things about the institutional church over the next 1-3 years. I hope you will listen to Him.
Are you saying that the conference in Jerusalem, which seemed good to the Holy Spirit, was actually evil?GOD INSISTS ON INTIMATE DIALOGUE WITH EACH BELIEVER. Institutions tend to muddy that, water it down and obstruct it rather than aid it as they were supposed to do.
God created the Church. The Church is not His enemy. Paul and Peter and James were not working against God when they continued Christ's work of ordering the Church.
If being cooperative, subordinating your own desires for the good of the Church, and helping in a coordinated way is too distracting for someone, then their faith is not very strong.
Everything we need to know about it is in the Scriptures he gave us.
If you're waiting on some kind of new, extra-Scriptural revelation, I'll just have to agree to disagree.
I just moved to a new community. My wife and I are looking for a "cell" type home church to join. Large institutional churches are good at performing the "work" of Christianity, but sometimes it's hard to meet Christ among all the Marthas....
Hmmmmm
I was under the impression that you had started out with a fiercely dichotomous statement.
I have no need to emphasize the dichotomy.
I do believe, though, that had Martha sat with Mary at Jesus' feet, that eventually, Jesus would have insured that the petty details necessary for attention had been attended to. The SUPER PRIORITY is to sit at His feet. Institutions tend to fuss about petty things quite overmuch.
If you don't know that I wonder how long you have been alive or how long you've been in a Christian institution.
MOST of the time, God seems like a rough and ready cavalier, unorthodox, unconventional, spontaneous, rough rider; Robin Hood, wanderer.
Occasionally He seems to be quite fussed up or intent on having the threads in the robe and the gold in the utensils etc. just precisely so.
But He's not routinely that way skipping down the road with His precious Children. And, I think He usually much prefers the latter.
I kind of expected you to leave the
ALMOST
out of that sentence.
Things are fitting IN THEIR PLACE.
Institutions become the elephant in the living room collapsing the altar we ought to continually place our hearts on before God.
The focus is Christ crucified.
According to Paul, the Church is the Body of that crucified Christ and we are incorporated into it by His grace.
So when Paul writes about how we should live that incorporation, I'm all ears.
I tell you a truth.
You will have and accept some new Revelation from Almighty God about HIS VIEW of what the institutional church has become in our era
OR
you will cease hearing Him at all about anything and be in serious hazard of walking a different path than the one He has for you.
Check it out later. Thanks and BUMP!!!
Well said.
And, they good house church sorts can be hard to find.
Some Vineyards do well. Some nondenominational ones do well.
Pray and ask a lot of a wide diversity of Believers is my only recourse in such situations.
I believe there are wonderful earnest believers in the Roman branch walking as close to God as they know how to and led of His Spirit.
I'm not at all into the traditions of men junk. And, if you think that the Roman branch is MORE FREE of such than other branches, then I think you have a lot to learn.
"So when Paul writes about how we should live that incorporation, I'm all ears."
I don't think so. I think you are deceiving yourself or being deceived by someone else.
I don't think you can answer the following question on the Biblical side honestly in the affirmative.
Paul wrote about that and particularly meetings of such in I Cor 14.
Are your meetings held accordingly with Holy Spirit doing His part overtly in concert with such efforts? Does each come with a song, a verse, a prophecy or such?
Given your stances, attitude and comment, I'd virtually guarantee that your honest answer has to be no.
Therefore, you don't really follow Paul's writings on corporate life much at all.
You are doggedly convincing me that you have less and less to offer me on such issues.
I try to have some Sabbath daily and a day a week on whatever day that week seems most fitting.
Beyond that, I'm not going to get into that contentious issue with you.
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