Posted on 04/25/2005 12:36:21 PM PDT by jmc159
Hi. I know many FReepers are often better informed about these matters than the general public, so I was hoping some of you could give me some insight into whether or not there is any substance to the charges that Fr. Maciel, founder of the Legionnaries of Christ, has abused seminarians in the past. Thanks!
1. Don't know the answer to that. That is a good criticism, actually.
2. I have not seen any classrooms per se, but I have seen one academy in particular, and the hallways are full of holy images and statues as well as several chapels.
3. Same as the answer for #2.
4. Fr. Maciel is the founder of the order. It is like church's that have images of the Holy Father or the Franciscans having images of St. Francis.
5. The one school I am aware of them "taking over" actually asked the Legion's support.
6. The Legion doesn't start their own schools because of various reasons. Since they are not diocesan, they do not have the ability to operate parish schools within a diocese. Also, they work through Apostolate, so a lot of the legwork is done by parents in Regnum Christi.
Uh oh... then they wanted to have more control.
Each classroom had a patron saint. One classroom had a huge statue of the Blessed Mother. They were told that the classes could not have patron saints and the pictures of the saints had to go. Even the crucifixes had to go. Too distracting. BUT Fr. Maciel's framed photo was to go up instead of the saints.
They wanted to be on the board.
They wanted the two women who ran the school and started the school to be voted off the board because they were hindering the changes (i.e., takeover)!
One thing that they wanted was to increase the tuition so as to "weed out undesirables."
Apparently, there are three levels of involvement with the Legionaries, A, B, and C. Just before the complete takeover (level C) the Board voted a big NO!
Just as well, really because the school is doing just fine.
You got that right!!
But, they are starting a university in Sacramento.
Fascinating ... and kinda wierd.
Thanks.
In all fairness, in my 7-plus years with them, they are orthodox in the Faith and in their offering of the Holy Sacrifice in the Novus Ordo rite. There are no abuses, and their catechesis and spirituality is rock solid.
Their recruitment methods and "methodolgy" and "formation" is NOT. It is coercive.
The recruitment is coercive? How so? My spiritual director is an LC priest, and he never forced my hand in any decision. All he did was help me be decisive. He made it clear to me that the LCs is always an option. But when I decided to apply to a diocesan seminary, he seemed rather convinced that that was my vocation, not the Legion. If the recruitment practices are so coercive, then why didn't he try to convince me more to join the Legion. I think the recruitment methods are actually quite good because they confronted me with the decision I had before me and helped me to evaluate where I was spiritually at different points along the way. He was persistent, however, and persistently asked me where I thought I was in my discernment. Maybe this persistence is what people mean by coercive.
Perhaps my case is the singular exception. But I think that the LC priest was simply very sincerely concerned with helping me discern my vocation, whatever it was to be.
"Perhaps my case is the singular exception."
I am sure there are other cases similar to yours.
As a lay RC member who assisted in their vocations apostolate, I can assure you that for the vast majority of cases in which I pointed them toward young men who were potential priestly vocations, their recruitment tactics were coercive. The same in the middle and high school seminary. Perhaps I was part of the problem. However, I am now rectifying on solving that.
Personally, as someone who has assisted a few young men with their decision, I would be wary of anything other than the FSSP or ICKSP. The Novus Ordo seminaries, even the "conservative" ones do not provide the proper philosophical education nor formation that will be needed for priests in the next 50 years to combat the battles about to come.
Doesn't seem to me that their propensity to obfuscate has helped them, as this discussion, open to the public, is taking place here and now.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the Church's response to pederasty probably did more long-lasting harm than the heinous acts themselves. The harm that it did is that now when the Church speaks to those lost souls, who are seeking the truth, even in their own imperfect way, they can justifiably shake their heads, roll their eyes, and say 'walk the walk, please', 'then maybe I'll begin to listen.'
A Catholics greatest responsibility is to live a Holy life, so that by example you draw in the lost. There's no better way to do it, then by example.
"Lost vocation, sure damnation."
Wow. In the FBI, they'd call that a clue.
Thank you for your concern. I share that concern about the Novus Ordo seminaries, and I have considered that myself when applying. I believe that the USCCB has instructions that mandate 2 years of philosophy prior to theology. In practice, I believe that it is only one year. Personally, I would like the stronger philosophical foundation.
And I hear ya all the way on the formation programs. But I think that some traditional seminarians might go a long way in contradicting the culture in seminaries. I am hopeful, and I think we have a good bishop here who has a reputation of transforming seminaries for the better.
God speed. May you know you are in my prayers.
That seems very odd to me. My brother and sister-in-law send their kids to a Legion academy (Everest Academy in Michiga) and just love it. The priests there are very open and welcoming. They practically demand parental involvement! All I can say is that from personal experience, the Legionaries for Christ are wonderful priests.
That's bull. I have a friend who is a former Legion seminarian. He still loves the Legion. He left after years in the seminary because it wasn't for him. He wanted to marry. The Legion totally supported that.
Look, I don't know what happened to you. But it appears that you have not had direct interaction with L of C yourself. It's very difficult, near impossible, for a group to defend itself against an accusation that they are "cult-like". It's not that I don't believe in cults (believe me, I live near the Scientology "Celebrity Center" mansion -- you want to talk about cults and brainwashing!). I have a very hard time believing that John Paul II would have had such a fondness for a group that is as despicable as you make them out to be. That's right. JPII and the current pope both have a special love of the L of C. So much so that other orders have accused the L of C of being "the Pope's teachers pet". Explain to me how wise and holy men like JPII and B16 could be hood-winked by a cult? Or are you smarter than they are?
As for the reinvestigation of Maciel, I think it is a necessary gesture. Maciel understands this as well. These charges are not new. One of the accusers has even recanted and renounced his fellow accusers.
And just to be clear -- I am not affiliated with L of C. I am not a member of any of their organizations. I am just writing what I have seen with my own two eyes.
BTW, why the hatred towards these people? Why the vicious suspicion? Have you read Maciel's book? Have you talked with a young Legionary?
Every religious order from the Franciscans to the Jesuits have been confronted with this same sort persecution.
Whoops. I wrote that before reading the post in which you explain that you are a former L of C. Sorry. But with all due respect, testimonials from disgruntled former members aren't always "impartial" shall we say.
My, my, my! A little anger there? Did I hit a nerve?
Calm down a bit.
Where did I say anything about hatred for "these people?" I know a few great Legionary priests.
Ok. So you answered one question. Want to take a stab (ooooh, bad choice of words for you). How about... take another try at the others?
I just heard that Cardional Mahoney put the brakes on a Legionary high school being built in Thousand Oaks, California (just north of Los Angeles).
They are not allowed to build a high school in the LA diocese. No surprise there, really.
Sad, because it is needed.
Excuse me. Correction.
I know of a few great Legionary priests.
I will say that, several years ago, I had a telephone conversation with Legionary priest who was rather aggressive in questioning me about a possible vocation to the priesthood. (He contacted me after getting my phone number from another individual who apparently thought I would be a good candidate.)
The conversation started out fine, but went downhill after a few minutes, particularly after he "questioned" my commitment to the Faith because I wasn't sure I wanted to pursue a priestly vocation.
Thus, I can see why some Catholics would look at such a tactic as "coercive." It didn't go over too well with me, that's for sure.
"That's bull. I have a friend who is a former Legion seminarian. He still loves the Legion. He left after years in the seminary because it wasn't for him. He wanted to marry. The Legion totally supported that."
That is a nice testimonial. Many people who leave do not want to go into the details of life inside the seminary. "Lost vocation, sure damnation," is a technique that has been used at least once. I would speculate it has been used more than that, but at least once.
"Look, I don't know what happened to you. But it appears that you have not had direct interaction with L of C yourself."
Wrong.
"It's very difficult, near impossible, for a group to defend itself against an accusation that they are "cult-like". It's not that I don't believe in cults (believe me, I live near the Scientology "Celebrity Center" mansion -- you want to talk about cults and brainwashing!). I have a very hard time believing that John Paul II would have had such a fondness for a group that is as despicable as you make them out to be. That's right. JPII and the current pope both have a special love of the L of C. So much so that other orders have accused the L of C of being "the Pope's teachers pet". Explain to me how wise and holy men like JPII and B16 could be hood-winked by a cult? Or are you smarter than they are?"
They are very good marketers. JPII actually did not list them as one of his favorite movements in the book he wrote discussing these. He actually named others, but not the L of C. But they market the few quotes from him favorable to them, and use his photo, quite well. As a marketer myself, I am impressed by their clever marketing.
"As for the reinvestigation of Maciel, I think it is a necessary gesture. Maciel understands this as well. These charges are not new."
Nope. You are right. They have NEVER been thoroughly researched and brought to the light of day. Hopefully, they will now.
"What the hell are you talking about?"
Now there is some charity.
"BTW, why the hatred towards these people?"
I detect no hatred in any of the remarks made on this board. Why are you so incensed and angry?
"Why the vicious suspicion? Have you read Maciel's book?"
I have read his spiritual writings. I have NOT read his PR puff pieace book. Have you read anything anyone has written that is not a PR puff piece? If not, then you are not too objective.
"Have you talked with a young Legionary?"
Yep. Rote responses. Distant. Cannot engage. Lose their personality. Like robots.
"Every religious order from the Franciscans to the Jesuits have been confronted with this same sort persecution."
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the Legion of Christ. The L of C is NOT the Franciscans nor the Jesuits.
And, NO, I am not an ex- L of C. I am an ex-RC. Actually, I still do everything in my power as a Catholic to build God's kingdom, just not through this particular "spirituality," as they like to say.
And by the way, first you accuse me, or insinuate, I know nothing firsthand about them, then when you actually re-read my posts, you accuse me of being an ex-member, so my views wouldn't be worth considering.
Which is it? Should I have a friend who was an ex-L of C, and put ALL of my knowledge based upon what that one person has told me, or should I have done extensive firsthand research, and spoken with dozens of people, and read both sides, and all sides of these issues, and having attended dozens of retreats, silent reflections, spiritual conferences, etc. Have had more than one of them as my spiritual director? Would this be TOO close, or not close enough.
You can't have it both ways. I have no hatred for the Legion. I hope Fr. Maciel is not guilty of what these men accuse him of. If he is, I am certain he has repented, but he has done a great disservice and scandal by leaving these eight men open to public ridicule all of these years, and have dozens and perhaps hundreds of RC and L of C priests think these men are liars. This would be completely and totally devastating, if true. I certainly would not want my boys, girls or friends' children involved in an organization founded by such a man.
"You will know a tree by its fruits."
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