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To: thePilgrim
Generally, I'm in complete agreement with the author.

But I've always found puzzling those portions of the Gospel where Jesus praises people for their virtue, i.e. the widow with the mite, the centurion with faith, etc.

It seems that some pre-regeneration action can elicit the praise of God. That seems to be somewhat at odds with the harsher statements of total-depravity that I've heard or even verses like "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" etc.

Thoughts?
3 posted on 04/16/2005 9:54:05 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Yes, even more puzzling is when Jesus asks the crowd to stop stoning the adulturess or calls the bad tax-collector man down to talk to Him. He asks them to change their behavior and be nicer people, hmm?


4 posted on 04/16/2005 11:16:34 AM PDT by elkclan (Liberty or death - and I greatly prefer the former)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; elkclan; thePilgrim
But I've always found puzzling those portions of the Gospel where Jesus praises people for their virtue, i.e. the widow with the mite, the centurion with faith, etc.

That's what this article is addressing. Man can experience a general, temporal happiness on earth. Just like Cypher who wanted to return to the Matrix in order to experience the earthly pleasures of a good steak.

But just like Adam, none of us can obey Him perfectly, and thus all fall short of the glory of God. Left to our own devices, we will always fail and we will always deserve damnation for that failure.

Only by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ are we saved. Christ paid the price for our sins, every one of them, according to His plan for His creation ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world.

He alone ends the Matrix.

6 posted on 04/16/2005 12:29:33 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

I think that everything that God does is true and I also know that Grace in that we must walk in constant Love. My flesh is doomed to die but my spirit will live on for ever because of what Christ did for me. My thoughts on sin; God saved me the worst of sinners so I must show that same mercy toward others and pray for the harvest so that He will send laborers in to the field. I only know what He shows me and I can't go beyond.....


7 posted on 04/16/2005 2:26:56 PM PDT by scottro (Cling to Jesus and to His promises.....)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Dr. Eckleburg

***Thoughts?***

I'll see if I can get to something tonight in between a whirlwind of "time off" activity during the weekend because, well, I think the Isaiah verse you cite has particular relevance to the theme of this thread.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.


8 posted on 04/16/2005 3:37:30 PM PDT by thePilgrim (We are vnto God the sweete sauour of Christ, in them that are saued, and in them which perish.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

I think the bottom line is that those people of virtue did those acts out of faith, not in order to be virtuous. The filthy rags has to do with self-righteousness not the righteousness recieved by faith in Christ.


19 posted on 04/17/2005 6:52:49 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Screw the truth into men's minds." Richard Baxter)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; elkclan; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; scottro; k2blader
I'm still busy, but I popped in to see what was up. So, without answering any specific verse because I disagree that everyone you mention has NOT been regenerated by God, I offer up this answer to a general question by the author of the article....



How do we account for the apparent "good" that comes from those who have not been regenerated and, thus, have no faith?

Good question because the meaning of total depravity is often misunderstood. It should first be pointed out what "total depravity" does not mean. The doctrine does not refer to man being as evil a creature as he can be. All fallen, unregenerate human beings are endowed with many of God's common graces. God has blessed all men with a conscience and the capacity to promote virtue and civil righteousness. It is abundantly clear that many beautiful aspects of the world we live in have been brought forth by those which are unredeemed by God's regenerative grace. God has gifted natural men and women with the skill to create beautiful music, make profound works of art, to invent intricate machines and do countless things that are productive, excellent and praiseworthy. Even John Calvin said,

"Those men whom Scripture calls "natural men" were, indeed, sharp and penetrating in their investigation of inferior things. Let us, accordingly, learn by their example how many gifts the Lord left to human nature even after it was despoiled of its true good." (Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 274-275).

It would be natural to ask, then, if man is totally depraved, how is it that he can bring forth so many good things? This question is indeed valid but misunderstands what is meant when we talk about man as being rendered depraved by the fall.

So what is meant, then, by the total depravity and spiritual inability of the natural man? It means that man's many good works, even though in accord with God's commands, are not well pleasing to God when weighed against His ultimate criteria and standard of perfection. The love of God and His law is not the unbelievers' deepest animating motive and principle (nor is it his motive at all), so it does not earn him the right to redemptive blessings from a holy God. The Scripture clearly implies this when it states "...without faith it is impossible to please Him." (Hebrews 11:6a, NASB) and "whatever is not from faith is sin." (Romans 14:23) So if man "is restrained from performing more evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God, then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God." (John Piper) His purpose for doing good works are not from a heart that loves God. But regeneration has enabled us, for the first time, to be pleasing to God on the basis of Christ's work and, from this, the work of the Holy Spirit in renewing our affections for God, giving us understanding of, and a delight in, spiritual things and turning our heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

Total depravity only means man is lost (Luke 19:10) and that he is impotent to recover himself from his ruined estate (John 6:44, 65, Eph 2:1, 2:5; Rom 3:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). Fallen man does not desire God, he loves darkness and hates the light (John 3:19,20) so he will not come into Christ at all except he be reborn by the Holy Spirit (John 3:6, John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-66).

sola gratia
John Hendryx


20 posted on 04/17/2005 7:07:42 AM PDT by thePilgrim (We are vnto God the sweete sauour of Christ, in them that are saued, and in them which perish.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

I agree with some of the author's points - for instance, that mere morality is not transcendent; that what we really need is to love God with all our hearts. A person can be very moral, all for self centered reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to serve God in love.

But at the same time, if the culture is hellish, as it is now, peoples' hearts become harder and harder the more egregious and vicious sins are accepted as normal and natural, thereby making it more difficult for them to hear God in their hearts or respond to His voice.

I also disagree that there is no Holy Spirit in peoples' hearts; my study and practice shows me that God is indeed in everyones' hearts, the Soul of our soul, but most of us don't hear Him much.

But that's a fine point.


28 posted on 04/18/2005 12:22:06 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Resisting evil is our duty or we are as responsible as those promoting it.)
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