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To: MarMema; crazykatz; don-o; JosephW; lambo; MoJoWork_n; newberger; Petronski; The_Reader_David; ...

Ping for discussion. For those of you who think it merits it, ping to your lists, please. This was posted on Pontifications, an Anglican blog. There is also an interesting reflection on the nature of confessional churches there by Met. John Zizoulis which is worth the read in the context of what +Ratzinger is saying.


2 posted on 04/16/2005 5:56:11 AM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: Kolokotronis; MarMema; crazykatz; don-o; JosephW; lambo; MoJoWork_n; newberger; Petronski; ...
We do not transform when we take the Body and the Blood -- they simply provide nourishment for our spirit. If we were indeed transformed into Christ-like beings with one Eucharist, we would not need another.

Let us not fall into temptation and assume that we can choose to be good. We are not good. But in Christ, and through Christ, we are evolving towards that goodness, being fed that Nourishment to sustain us in that transformation.

What does the transformation, as the final "product" entail? It entails triumph of the Spirit over our the flesh. It entails triumph of the spiritual over the material. It entails triumph of the heavenly over the earthly. It entails placing God first, and everything else second. Are we there yet? I doubt it!

That's the problem with celibacy in the Latin Church - it is mandated. Celibacy is a "natural" progression from being enslaved by the flesh to being free in the Spirit of such passions. It is a stage we may reach one day on earth, but few do. Those who have been "transformed" have no passions, earthly possessions or attachments, and sped their lives in constant prayer, which -- by the way -- keeps them from committing sin.

The Eucharist does not do that, nor is it indeed to do that. The Eucharist is not a "magic pill" that transforms us from ugly ducklings into beautiful swans. It is manna indeed, the bread and drink of Life everlasting, the Cleanser and the Purifier of our souls. For, no sooner do we take the Body and Blood, do we continue to sin, pollute, and corrupt our body, thought and acts.

The Eucharist does create a community -- ekklesia -- of believer united in Christ and is therefore a communion of the faithful.

4 posted on 04/16/2005 8:12:45 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis

bump for later.


9 posted on 04/16/2005 12:03:50 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Kolokotronis
There is also an interesting reflection on the nature of confessional churches there by Met. John Zizoulis which is worth the read in the context of what +Ratzinger is saying.

Is that the same person as John Zizioulas?

18 posted on 04/16/2005 4:10:49 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: Kolokotronis

I think Cdl. Ratzinger's point in communion with Christ would have been better termed as an encounter. I don't know if he believes theosis can be achieved through Communion. While I do not and don't disagree with the comments so far on the thread, I do believe the sacraments are vital on the path to theosis. That's not to say a person couldn't achieve union without them, but I think it would be extraordinarily difficult without the grace and structure of the Church.

What concerns me more from a traditional Roman perspective is Ratzinger's second half of his essay. At Vatican II he was very much a liberal revolutionary. Some have said he is reformed, that I do not know, but if so he has only proceeded to the conservative point of the revolution. His emphasis on the horizontal aspect of Communion and the "social" nature is classic modernist speak. It is this reduction of the vertical nature which has produced no great visionaries, mystics, saints etc in the past 40 years. Again, nothing is impossible for the Divine, but I believe the Holy Ghost is allowing us to see the error of worshipping ourselves. No one ever achieved theosis/mystical union via a horizontal communion with their fellow man.


22 posted on 04/17/2005 12:38:06 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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