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To: Kolokotronis; MarMema; crazykatz; don-o; JosephW; lambo; MoJoWork_n; newberger; Petronski; ...
We do not transform when we take the Body and the Blood -- they simply provide nourishment for our spirit. If we were indeed transformed into Christ-like beings with one Eucharist, we would not need another.

Let us not fall into temptation and assume that we can choose to be good. We are not good. But in Christ, and through Christ, we are evolving towards that goodness, being fed that Nourishment to sustain us in that transformation.

What does the transformation, as the final "product" entail? It entails triumph of the Spirit over our the flesh. It entails triumph of the spiritual over the material. It entails triumph of the heavenly over the earthly. It entails placing God first, and everything else second. Are we there yet? I doubt it!

That's the problem with celibacy in the Latin Church - it is mandated. Celibacy is a "natural" progression from being enslaved by the flesh to being free in the Spirit of such passions. It is a stage we may reach one day on earth, but few do. Those who have been "transformed" have no passions, earthly possessions or attachments, and sped their lives in constant prayer, which -- by the way -- keeps them from committing sin.

The Eucharist does not do that, nor is it indeed to do that. The Eucharist is not a "magic pill" that transforms us from ugly ducklings into beautiful swans. It is manna indeed, the bread and drink of Life everlasting, the Cleanser and the Purifier of our souls. For, no sooner do we take the Body and Blood, do we continue to sin, pollute, and corrupt our body, thought and acts.

The Eucharist does create a community -- ekklesia -- of believer united in Christ and is therefore a communion of the faithful.

4 posted on 04/16/2005 8:12:45 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

"That's the problem with celibacy in the Latin Church - it is mandated."

Yes, it is. But consider it in light of all else you have written. Those men who should present themselves for priesthood are the ones who have already gone that far down the journey. Those who have not, yet, should work on their own spiritual state before seeking ecclesial office to shepherd others.

It is an extremely demanding standard, celibacy, for those still tied too heavily to the flesh. And it is precisely those who shouldn't be seeking holy office, but holy contemplation.

Jesus and Paul both recommended the celibate state. That the Latin Church has made that high standard THE standard, it seems to me, is an effort to put faith into practice.


5 posted on 04/16/2005 8:18:38 AM PDT by Vicomte13 (Kawin waasikwa'anansin moowish.)
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To: kosta50; Vicomte13; bornacatholic; Knitting A Conundrum

My read of what the Cardinal is saying indicates to me that he is writing about two connected things. First, the transformation which Kosta discusses and second, the nature of the Church as a Eucharistic communion. As to the first, I agree with Kosta, the Cardinal leaps from the reception of communion to full theosis. As an Orthodox Christian I can't see that. Its all too easy and indeed the Eucharist is not a "magic pill". The Orthodox prayers for before and after the Eucharist lay out well what we believe (lex orandi, lex credendi again!):

"BEFORE RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.

Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom.

May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen.

AFTER RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION:

I thank Thee, O Lord my God, for Thou hast not rejected me, a sinner, but hast made me worthy to be a partaker of Thy Holy Things. I thank Thee, for Thou hast permitted me, the unworthy, to commune of Thy most pure and Heavenly, Gifts. But, O Master Who lovest mankind, Who for our sakes didst die and rise again, and gavest us these awesome and life-creating Mysteries for the good and sanctification of our souls and bodies; let them be for the healing of our soul and body, the repelling of every adversary, the illumining of the eyes of my heart, the peace of my spiritual power, a faith unashamed, a love unfeigned, the fulfilling of wisdom, the observing of Thy commandments, the receiving of Thy divine grace, and the attaining of Thy Kingdom. Preserved by them in Thy holiness, may I always remember Thy grace and live not for myself alone, but for Thee, our Master and Benefactor. May I pass from this life in the hope of eternal life, and so attain to the everlasting rest, where the voice of those who feast is unceasing, and the gladness of those who behold the goodness of Thy countenance is unending. For Thou art the true desire and the ineffable joy of those who love Thee, O Christ our God, and all creation sings Thy praise forever. Amen."

As to the Eucharistic Community, I think that as an Orthodox person I can say that the Cardinal is advancing an Orthodox position, if I understand him correctly and that when refering to the Eucharist, he is not simply refering to the actual reception of the Body and Blood but also and more expansively to the entire Liturgy. A noted Greek Orthodox theologian, Fr. Thomas Fitzgerald wrote:

"....The Eucharist is the most distinctive event of Orthodox worship because in it the Church gathers to remember and celebrate the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ and, thereby, to participate in the mystery of Salvation.

In the Orthodox Church, the Eucharist is also known as the Divine Liturgy. The word liturgy means people's work; this description serves to emphasize the corporate character of the Eucharist. When an Orthodox attends the Divine Liturgy, it is not as an isolated person who comes simply to hear a sermon.

Rather, he comes as a member of the Community of Faith who participates in the very purpose of the Church, which is the Worship of the Holy Trinity. Therefore, the Eucharist is truly the center of the life of the Church and the principal means of spiritual development, both for the individual Christian and the Church as a whole. Not only does the Eucharist embody and express the Christian faith in a unique way, but it also enhances and deepens our faith in the Trinity. This sacrament-mystery is the experience toward which all the other activities of the Church are directed and from which they receive their direction.

The Eucharist, the principal sacrament mystery of the Orthodox Church, is not so much a text to be studied, but rather an experience of communion with the Living God in which prayer , music, gestures, the material creation, art and architecture come into full orchestration. The Eucharist is a celebration of faith which touches not only the mind but also the emotions and the senses.

Throughout the centuries, Christians have seen many dimensions in the Eucharist. The various titles which have come to describe the rite bear witness to the richness of its meaning. The Eucharist has been known as the Holy offering, the Holy Mysteries, the Mystic Supper, and the Holy Communion. The Orthodox Church recognizes the many facets of the Eucharist and wisely refuses to over-emphasize one element to the detirement of the others. In so doing, Orthodoxy has clearly avoided reducing the Eucharist to a simple memorial of the Last Supper which is only occasionally observed. Following the teachings of both Scripture and Tradition, the Orthodox Church believes that Christ is truly present with His people in the celebration of the Holy Eucharist. The Eucharistic gifts of bread and wine become for us His Body and His Blood. We affirm that these Holy Gifts are transfigured into the first fruits of the New Creation in which ultimately God will be "all in all...."

Have I missed the Cardinal's point?


7 posted on 04/16/2005 9:58:23 AM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: kosta50
St. Hilary of Poitiers, 315 a.d. The Faith of the Early Fathers

When we speak about the reality of Christ's nature being in us, we would be speaking foolishly and impiously - had we not learned it from Him. ...And these elements (Body and Blood of Christ) bring it about, when taken and consumed, that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Is this not true? Let those who deny that Jesus Christ is true God be free to find these things untrue. But He Himself is in us through the flesh and we are in Him, while that which we are with Him is in God.

10 posted on 04/16/2005 12:38:45 PM PDT by bornacatholic (Please, God. A Pope who will wake-up the West to Islam's war against us.)
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To: kosta50
Celibacy is a "natural" progression from being enslaved by the flesh to being free in the Spirit of such passions. It is a stage we may reach one day on earth, but few do.

Millions of middle-aged women would beg to differ with you! ;>)

56 posted on 04/17/2005 5:03:54 PM PDT by pharmamom (Lost: One Really Great Tagline. If found, please return to its owner.)
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