Being Angry at God

The Letters of Francis Schaeffer (Crossways Books, 1986) as reprinted at thewords.com ^ | August 28, 1969 | Francis A. Schaeffer

[Alex Murphy]

Words Written to Friends
selections from the letters of Francis Schaeffer

Letter Eight
Being Angry at God

In the midst of a fallen world things are abnormal; they have been changed from that which God made them originally. Christ could be angry at the tomb of Lazarus as He faced the abnormality of death; and we have a right to be angry too. But to be angry at God is both silly and blasphemous. One cannot have the Christian answer that men are really significant in history and then expect God to eradicate every wrong result from that significance while allowing the good aspects of that significance to still operate. If man can influence history, he can influence it for evil and cruelty, as well as for good and noncruelty...

August 28, 1969
1861 Huemoz sur Ollon, Switzerland

[Revelation 911]

see alex's 16 (despite his 11)

have a great day Glenn

[GLENNS]

You seem angry.

Do you want to talk about it?

[Frumanchu]

Amen. And how true that what is ultimately in our best interest...for our good...is so often what seems from our own limited and temporal perspective to be the worst possible thing that could happen to us.

[Alex Murphy]

You seem angry. Do you want to talk about it?

LOL

Well, at least GLENNS is trying to keep us on topic!

Seriously, if you three want to continue your discussions, please take it to another thread. And Rev911, this makes my second request to you to stay on-topic, or drop off the thread.

[Revelation 911]

no no - nothing of the sort - the computer doesnt convey emotion well does it ?

Alex merely asked me to stay on topic and drop it

merely respecting alex's wishes - though Im intrigued - and wouldnt mind if we spoke about this via frmail

regardless, I have to bail for an appt.

have a good day

[P-Marlowe]

I would ask that you be a man of your word, leave the thread so that others can post their thoughts without criticism

So this is a post without criticism thread, huh?

Interesting.

In the midst of a fallen world things are abnormal; they have been changed from that which God made them originally.

I've been told he made them to be exactly as they are now. Thus nothing is abnormal... Maybe I was told wrong.

Christ could be angry at the tomb of Lazarus as He faced the abnormality of death; and we have a right to be angry too.

Jesus wept.

But to be angry at God is both silly and blasphemous.

You got a scripture for that, Francis?

One cannot have the Christian answer that men are really significant in history and then expect God to eradicate every wrong result from that significance while allowing the good aspects of that significance to still operate. If man can influence history, he can influence it for evil and cruelty, as well as for good and noncruelty...

Huh?

BTW, I expect no criticism of my comments.

[EternalVigilance]

I would love to be on the ping list to read these treasures.

[Alex Murphy]

You got it! I've added you to the list.

[connectthedots]

If man can influence history, he can influence it for evil and cruelty, as well as for good and noncruelty...

Not very Calvinistic, if you ask me.

[blue-duncan]

"But to be angry at God is both silly and blasphemous.

You got a scripture for that, Francis?"

You are on to something there. I seem to remember Jeremiah saying something to the effect, "You tricked me" and he was not happy about it.

[Alex Murphy]

"You got a scripture for that, Francis?"

You are on to something there

Hope this helps if you want to research Schaeffer's claims further:

Schaeffer makes repeated references, throughout his books, to Jesus being angry at Lazarus' tomb. In his first book He Is There and He Is Not Silent, he elaborates a little more on the subject. I've reproduced the passage here, hand-typing it from my personal copy...

Let us go to the tomb of Lazarus. As Jesus stood there, He not only wept, but He was angry. The exegesis of the Greek of the passages John 11:33 and 38 is clear. Jesus, standing in front of the tomb of Lazarus, was angry at death and the abnormality of the world -- the destruction and distress caused by sin.

. A footnote appears, following the phrase "John 11:33 and 38 is clear", and it cites the source of Schaeffer's interpretation, namely B.B. Warfield. The footnote reads thus:

See B.B. Warfield, Biblical and Theological Studies (New York, Scribner's Sons, 1912), "On the Emotional Life of Our Lord," pp. 35-90

[thePilgrim]

Yes, cool. Someone who is posting some good stuff. Add me to your ping list as well.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.

[Alex Murphy]

Thanks for the request! I've added you to the list.

[thePilgrim]

Help me out here. I'm trying to figure out how Paul, under the inspiration of the HS, tells that all things work together for good to those that love and God and are the called is somehow not quite right. Even in the sense of the death of saints, which was the original objection to this wholesome doctrine, we learn from the Bible that death itself is a gift from God.

Are we not more than overcomers?

Actually, as I write and think about it, even being angry at God itself must work together with all things for the ultimate good of the saints.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.

[blue-duncan]

I understand Schaeffer's point concerning the tomb, but my point is God wants us to be authentic persons. He created us with a wide variety of emotions and anger is one of them. God gets angry. Paul tells us that we can be angry but don't let it become sin. When we are angry with God because we don't understand or won't understand, it is a teaching time and that is appropriate. To blandly accept all things is to appreciate nothing. To be upset with God because we perceive He is not acting in character or as we were lead to believe, as Jeremiah or Ezekiel thought, is not sin, but a high view of God. High in the sense of what the creature can think or expect not what the Creator thinks or plans. Then God lets His friends in on His secrets and "Eureka" takes place. God wants us to honest with Him in our praise and in our complaints so that He can mature our thinking and relationship. We are not perfect yet and He knows that and accommodates that in our sanctification.

[GLENNS]

To be upset with God because we perceive He is not acting in character or as we were lead to believe, as Jeremiah or Ezekiel thought, is not sin, but a high view of God.

LOL. Is that what God thought when Jeremiah complained? "OH Jeremiah, you have such a high view of me because you whined." Is God just that big grandfatherly guy in the sky who understands when we're being "authentic"? Well let's see what God actually said:

19 This is how God answered me: "Take back those words, and I'll take you back. Then you'll stand tall before me. Use words truly and well. Don't stoop to cheap whining. Then, but only then, you'll speak for me. Let your words change them. Don't change your words to suit them.

Opps! Sure, be authentic and then be prepared to repent.

[blue-duncan]

I am at a loss as to the version you are quoting from. I assume you are quoting Jer. 15:19 and if that is so we are not talking about the same thing. My quote comes from Jer. 20:7-13 and that gives the progression from anger to understanding, and the rest of the chapter is more anger without chastisement from the Lord. Jeremiah is an example of the Lord's long suffering with His prophet in tough times. Sometimes He is patient and sometimes His patience is exhausted (if anything can be exhausted of the Lord). It is a high view of God that we in our limited knowledge expect better of our circumstances and this permits God to unveil His plan. If all is "roses" there is no learning the transcendence of God. Only that the circumstances meet our expectations. God's kingdom is vastly more than we can appreciate and we learn it by bumping up against our limitations and that causes frustration and anger. The world can't get mad at God since they don't know Him. We do and are in a familial relationship with Him and misunderstandings come with the territory. That is why there is teaching, surprises, confession and repentance and ultimately, praise, just as in Jeremiah.

[onedoug]

Angry? No.

Confused? Sometimes.

Fearful of God? Yes, that I may fear others and things less.

[A2J]

Do you have room for another one on your ping list?

[GLENNS]

If all is "roses" there is no learning the transcendence of God.

There are very few who believe that the Christian life is all "roses", save a few deluded folks in the prosperity gospel sects. But let's be "authentic", shall we? Have you had a similar experience as Jeremiah? Has your pastor tied you up and whipped you in front of your congregation and town? Let's not suppose that our comfy American lifestyle in anyway represents the hardship that Jeremiah went through or any other Christian martrys. When you begin to experience hardships such as these then come back and talk to me about anger at God.