Posted on 04/10/2005 8:33:55 AM PDT by sionnsar
FOUR in 10 Catholic priests in Scotland believe that they should be allowed to marry — and 23% of them say the church should relax its ban on contraception and the ordination of homosexual clergy.
Following the death of Pope John Paul II last weekend, a Sunday Times survey has revealed widespread support for a more liberal line to be taken by his successor.
The church’s position on celibacy gained the highest level of support for change. Asked if the next pope should allow priests to marry, 41% said he should.
In 2002, before he became a cardinal, Keith O’Brien, the leader of the Catholic church in Scotland, shocked traditionalists when he said that he “would have no problems with celibacy withering away”.
Many priests see no theological reason why they should not marry and have children. “It is only a church law and church law can be changed,” said Father Brian Lamb of St Patrick’s chapel in Shotts, Lanarkshire.
Father Dominic Quinn, of St Kevin’s chapel in Bargeddie, near Glasgow, said: “In Britain we have had some married Anglican clergy who have become priests and the church law of celibacy has not been applied to them, so it is not seen as a divine institution. The way the church has used this has changed throughout history.”
A change in the position on contraception, an issue that has done much to damage the credibility of the church during the reign of John Paul, was supported by 23% of the priests.
John Paul believed all contraception was “intrinsically evil” and that the use of condoms to help to prevent the spread of HIV was “morally illicit”.
Among the other findings of the survey, 20% of priests said they would support the ordination of women priests and 26% favoured allowing openly gay men to be priests — but only if they remain celibate.
Father Joe Mills, from St Mary’s chapel in Duntocher, said: “There could be an argument for women priests and, as for homosexuals, they make the same vows as heterosexual priests, so why not ordain them?” Sister Christine Schenk, of the US-based Catholic lobby group FutureChurch, which is pushing to make celibacy optional and to have women ordained as deacons, said the church was facing a shortage of priests. The worldwide Catholic population rose by 52% to 1.1 billion between 1973 and 2002, but the number of priests remained static at 405,000, she said.
“Our concern, and the concern of priests, was not that celibacy was not a good way of life and many were very happy, it was overwhelmingly about us not being able to keep having mass and the sacraments available to Catholic people if we don’t attract more priests.”
Jan Barlow, chief executive of Brook Advisory Centres, the sexual health charity for young people, said: “A relaxation of the Catholic church’s position on contraception would help more people to make informed choices about their sexual health, prevent unplanned pregnancies and protect themselves from sexually transmitted infections.”
Last month James Bell became the first married priest to be ordained in Scotland. A former Scottish Episcopal minister, he converted to Catholicism and subsequently became a priest. oToday the Church of Scotland publishes a report calling for a “pragmatic” response to tackle the growing Aids crisis around the world.
The report calls on all Christians to face up to the issue more directly. It says: “Unless reticence is rapidly replaced with pragmatic and forward-looking approaches, HIV will spread more extensively in many countries which, until now, have escaped with only minor epidemics.”
Additional reporting: Holly Marney, Rory Gallivan
You omitted ignorant from your self description. No offense intended but a fact nevertheless. We are all ignorant of different topics.
The discipline of celibacy and the Priesthood finds its origins with the Levitical Priesthood of Melchisedech in the Old Testament, who is first mentioned in the Book of Genesis, and the Apostles in the Catholic Church. A discipline reaffirmed by numerous Councils and Popes in the first millenia. Over two thousand years is hardly "an INVENTED tradition only a few hundred years old,".You'd be well advised to brush up on your knowledge, or more appropriately, lack thereof, of Scripture and history before making easily refuted statements. Also, you should know that there are 22 Churches sui juris and six rites in the Catholic Church. The Latin Rite, with the exception of the limited Anglican dispensation, ordains men who have freely chosen the discipline of celibacy. The remaining 21 Churches will ordain married men. However, once ordained, single Priests may not then get married and remain Priests. All Churches select their Bishops exclusively from celibates. Same as in the Greek Orthodox Church.
"But Melchisedech the king of Salem, bringing forth bread and wine, for he was the priest of the most high God," Genesis 14:18
"The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech." Psalm 109:4
"Where the forerunner Jesus is entered for us, made a high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech." Hebrews 6: 20
"For this Melchisedech was king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him: To whom also Abraham divided the tithes of all: who first indeed by interpretation, is king of justice: and then also king of Salem, that is, king of peace: Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but likened unto the Son of God, continueth a priest for ever." Hebrews 7:1-3
"For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mothers womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it." Matthew 19:12
"Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? And Jesus said to them: Amen I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first." Matthew 19:27-30
"Then Peter said: Behold, we have left all things and have followed thee. Who said to them: Amen, I say to you, there is no man that hath left home or parents or brethren or wife or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive much more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." Luke 18:28-30
Study Canons XXVII and XXXIII of the Council of Elvira, 295-302 AD.
"ut quod apostoli docuerunt, et ipsa servavit antiquitas nos quoque custodiamus" - "what the Apostles taught and what antiquity itself observed, let us also endeavour to keep" Council of Carthage 390 AD.
Best of luck on your journey to greater edification.
Incorrect. Please read 21.
"The goodness of this Pope is still yet to be realized, there is a quiet revolution going on out here in the hinterlands and the gates of Hell will not prevail!"
A quiet revolution that is getting past the vigilance of bishops nurtured in the philosophy of Vatican II? I see little evidence of it unless you mean those curious clergy who like a little Latin with their standard Sunday fare (a la Ratzinger).
See post #16
As is your right.
Well, I did read it, but I will search for it and read it again.
You SSPX folks are so self righteous you make me wanna puke, go off and worship in your schismatic conclave and I doubt I'll see you in the here after as I remain faithful to the chair of Saint Peter of which Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. You have no idea what quiet revolution I am talking about and wouldn't notice it if you saw it anyway. You know, we are on the same side but your hatred blinds you
"Following the death of Pope John Paul II last weekend, a Sunday Times survey has revealed widespread support for a more liberal line to be taken by his successor."
This statement is sheer BS and is not even supported by their own statistics. Clearly from the figures presented here, the majority do not want any change on these doctrines and disciplines.
I am amazed that only 1 in 5 of those responding (or selected) for the poll wanted to change the Church's teaching on contraception. If around 80% of the priests in one of the most liberal hierarchies in the Catholic Church support the Church's teaching on contraception and 100% of them on abortion, then this is very good news indeed.
It goes to show how unrepresentative our liberal episcopates are of the clergy generally.
It is also very good news that only 1 in 5 support women's ordination, and only 1 in 4 support homosexual ordination. Things are in much better shape than I thought, and, in the priesthood at least, the liberals are very much in the minority.
bump for your comments!
Pope: Priests Must Stay Celibate
Giving Thanks for the Good Shepherds ( A Defense of Priestly Celibacy)
Don't end celibacy for priests
The celibate superhero
Priestly Celibacy And Its Roots In Christ
How to Refute Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy
Priestly Celibacy Reflects Who - and Whose - We Are[Father George W.Rutler]
Celibacy
Tracing the Glorious Origins of Celibacy
God’s call to celibacy for the sake of His Kingdom - by Card. George
Vatican Says Celibacy Rule Nonnegotiable
Bishop Attacks Move to End Celibacy
A response to Fr. Joseph Wilson's defense of mandatory celibacy
The gift of Priestly celibacy as a sign of the charity of Christ, by Mother Teresa of Calcutta
Archbishop Dolan:"We Need to Be Renewing Our Pledge to Celibacy, Not Questioning It"
Celibacy is gift cherished by church
Celibacy Will Save the Priesthood
Celibacy Defended by EWTN's Fr. Levis
Call To Action: Dump Celibacy
The (Catholic) Church Has Always Prospered When Celibacy Is Honored
John Paul II Hails "Inestimable Value" of Priestly Celibacy
For Priests, Celibacy Is Not the Problem
Fr. Shannon Collins Discusses Celibacy
5 Arguments Against (Catholic) Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them
Why A Married Priesthood Won't Remedy the Priest Shortage
New Vatican Document on Homosexuality and the Priesthood Coming Before Fall 2005
Catholic priests demand the right to marry
Catholic priests urge Church to reconsider celibacy rules
Alternative Priests´ Council Hits Back on Mandatory Celibacy
Married Priests? The English Experience
Saying Yes to God: a Look into Vocations
New Vatican Document to Eliminate 1961 Papal Ban on Ordaining Homosexuals
Saying Yes to God: a Look into Vocations
Is it time to ordain married men to the Catholic priesthood?
40% of Scots priests want end to celibacy
"You have no idea what quiet revolution I am talking about and wouldn't notice it if you saw it anyway. You know, we are on the same side but your hatred blinds you"
I am waiting .... but my hair is getting very grey and beard long.
bump for your comments!
Yes, let's bump those comments as another fine example of the overwhelming charity exuded from those who celebrate the new springtime and claim to promote a "civilization of love."
Plenty of "separated brethren" stuff for the Orthodox, Protestants, and even non Christians, however it ends with regard to Catholics who don't go along with the John Paul II and Vatican II are the greatest things since sliced bread group think.
so self righteous you make me wanna puke,
projection - the attribution of one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or to objects; especially : the externalization of blame, guilt, or responsibility as a defense against anxiety
righteous 1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Most of the people at my traditional chapel go to confession at least once every two weeks, if not before every mass. These are hardly the actions of those who think they are without sin.
Catholic priests don't marry because early in its history, the church didn't want the families of priests making financial claims against the church.
Greed is the source of this tradition, and that sin has come back to haunt the church and helped to destroy the fabric of the worlds culture.
Gentlemen, can you say abortafacient? Do you now what it means? If you purport to be rational human beings, please keep your line of thought consistent.
now = know.
If you are interested, here is perhaps the best explanation that I have heard of the discipline for celibacy, from an interview with Fr. Malachi Martin that Gerard P (another freeper) has transcribed:
Excerpt from the taped interview of Fr. Malachi Martin by Bernard Janzen :The Eternal War: the Priesthood in Crisis: (transcription by Gerard P)
"...the idea is to do away with the priesthood. The thing that really militates against the popular taste today about priesthood is celibacy. They regard nowadays, in the society in which we live, the expression of sexuality whether within marriage...outside of marriage whether by yourself or with somebody of the same sex, or with an animal is regarded as quite normal.... If you don't "frighten the horses" so to speak. Provided you don't violate any "rule of decent living". The idea that men, young men of twenty say,..take a vow of celibacy. That they will never get married. And that they can('t) keep that without getting twisted and psychologically moronic and finally ending up in pedophilia or sadism or in some twisted psychology. That is the normal attitude to priests today. So the idea of Roman Catholic celibacy is something that is utterly alien to the mind.Why? Because the idea of priesthood is. And this is where the great lack in teaching in seminaries and in the Catholic populace lies.
You see...a priest..Christ was once asked, (they pointed out a eunuch to him... a eunuch was somebody who accidentally or for some reason or another couldn't have sex. His genitals were destroyed or something.) And somebody said to him, "Lord what do you think of the eunuch? And he said,"There are three kinds of eunuchs. There's the man who's born like that from nature." ( Deficient in other words, he hasn't got the where-with-all). "There's the one who men made a eunuch." (Because they used to castrate people to make them eunuchs because eunuchs are very useful in palaces. 'cause they wouldn't touch the women and they were very good guards. And eunuchs always developed a very great cruelty. I suppose in reaction to their mutilation. And also if you did that, the voice remained high-pitched and beautiful through teenage years. And then he said, "There is a third kind of eunuch who does it to himself for the sake of the kingdom of God. He said, very mysteriously, "whoever understands, let him understand,'qui potest capere capiat"... meaning there is a very deep mystery.
The mystery is this: I can look on my celibacy if I am a priest, as a chastity belt. And the Church has locked it and thrown away the key. In that case then, I'm just somebody deprived of what I should have a right to by a greater force that's thrown away the key.
That's not celibacy at all. That is enforced continence.
I can look on celibacy then as something acceptable to the Church but a pain in the neck or a pain somewhere else. I still am very far from it.
The celibate is somebody who says to himself or herself (a nun), "My greatest power of love is in reproduction and in living with another human being. And in having children and in exchanging our love and warmth and friendship and confidence. And giving each other the intimacy of our very being, soul and body, which a true marriage does.
But, I will give that up because..when I become a priest, Christ puts a seal on my soul. The seal of his priesthood. And that seal cordons me off for a higher destiny. And the destiny is to have a very, very particular union with God, with Christ.
And that union is the union of somebody who is going to hold God's body in his hands at Mass. And is going to be a special emissary bringing blessing and shriving people from their sins and healing their souls. That's what true celibacy is. It's a segregation of your soul from all the lovely things in life that human love can bring and marriage can bring.
By the way, Look. It also has its ills and its difficulties but in general, it's regarded as a great benefit to be married. Or to live with somebody as we do nowadays. [sarcasm from Fr. Martin]
But to cut that off deliberately and to do it lovingly and to make it a positive contribution, and to devote all the energies that nature has given us for human love... to devote them to Christ. And to concentrate all that on..the Sacrifice of Christ and the preaching of his Gospel and the transmission of his message of love and salvation to souls and healing them and shriving them and helping them supporting them guiding them and welcoming them to the truth. That is the highest vocation a man can have.
Similarly with a nun who takes a vow of chastity. The same thing, She says to herself, "I'm going to imitate Our Lady, who is a virgin. who is the Mother of God. I'm going to have spiritual children and most of Our Lady's children are spiritual. (She had only one child of her own who was called Jesus.) But, I'm going to have those children by my prayers and by my identity with the great mother: The Mother of God.
And I'm going to do all that by renouncing this: Not because it's ill or bad. It's not bad, It's good. God made it. It's good, he said, 'Increase and multiply, love each other, be one flesh. It's a sacrament in the New Covenant. But I'm going to renounce that because I'm going to have a greater identification with Our Lady because God is calling me to that. And all the love and sympathy and empathy and the perceptiveness of love, I'm going to transfer that to Our Lady and Our Lord. And I'm going to make that my special sacrifice.
And in the beginning it is a sacrifice. And then, with the passage of time and fidelity, suddenly...this flower blooms in their souls. And they achieve this marvelous tranquility and this marvelous warmth that people always saw in the traditional priest. This amazing power to get inside you. This light, this feeling that they were there for you. They weren't riven in their sympathies. And they were there for you because Christ was their man, Christ was their King, Christ was their High Priest. That idea of priesthood....you won't find that anywhere today in Catholic manuals or preached in sermons or anything like that. Celibacy is regarded as...like Fish on Friday , a law we want to change and do away with." - Fr. Martin
Not only that, but what celibacy did in the middle ages, according to historians, was to force priests to keep concubines instead of wives. People apparently didn't hold it against them. Nowadays, concubines would be scandalous, so the weak among them slide into more hideous pursuits, including other men or even boys among their flock, pursuits that are or were more easily concealed.
It is clear that there are scriptural bases for having a celibate priesthood, and it is understandable how that doctrine would develop. However, there is no clear prohibition against married priests, and there certainly is no consensus among other Christians who have read the bible and are just as devout and serious about their faith as you, from Orthodox churches that have a history dating back to the early centuries to more recent protestant thinkers. Unfortunately, when people are unable to step back from their church's mindset to look at things dispassionately, then you get posts such as yours.
THE HISTORY OF CELIBACY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
According to A.W. Richard Sipe, the concept that the offerers of a sacrifice should remain untainted by sexual encounters goes back to ancient civilizations. He provides such examples as the yellow-capped Lamas of Tibet, the ascetic hermits of Egypt, the virgin priestesses of Thebes, the Astorte cult of Syria, the primitive worshipers of Dodona, the Vestal Virgins of ancient Rome, and the temple priests of the Aztecs. (page 35)
David Rice presents a comprehensive historical look at celibacy in his book about resigned priests entitled, Shattered Vows. Rice credits Catholic theologian Edward Schillebeeckx in The Church with a Human Face with asserting that clerical celibacy originated in "a partly pagan notion of ritual purity," as Sipe indicates with the aforementioned examples. At the Council of Nicaea in 325, a proposal to require celibacy for all priests was defeated and at the Council of Trullo in 692, marriage rights for priests were reasserted. (Rice page 161.)
Schillebeeckx says that, first in the fourth century came a law that forbade a married priest from having sexual intercourse the night before celebrating the Eucharist. However, when the Western Church began celebrating a daily mass, abstinence became a permanent factor for married priests.
"At the origin of the law of abstinence, and later the law of celibacy," said Schillebeeckx, "we find an antiquated anthropology and ancient view of sexuality." (ibid) Rice follows with a quotation from St. Jerome which expressed the views of both pagans and Christians at the time that, "All sexual intercourse is impure." (ibid)
Because the resulting implication of a priest living with his wife like a brother led many priests into "deplorable situations," in 1139, the Second Lateran Council forbade the marriage of priests altogether and declared all existing marriages involving priests null and void. (ibid)
"One does not approach the alter and consecrated vessels with soiled hands," had been the pagan view and then became the cornerstone for compulsory Christian celibacy. (ibid) Other not-necessarily concurrent or chronological developments also contributed to the establishment of the celibacy requirement for catholic priests. More bishops began to be chosen from the ranks of monks who had already taken monastic vows of chastity. Another factor was an economic development as the Church began acquiring his own property. According to Rice, there was a real danger that legitimate children of priests could inherit and deprive the Church of its land. At the time, common law prevented illegitimate children from inheriting property.
In reality, the 1139 law did not enact celibacy but merely changed marriage into concubinage. Rice quotes from a document on celibacy prepared by church historian Hubert Jedin for the Second Vatican Council:
"It would be a mistake to imagine that these permanent concubines, especially in the countryside, would have aroused a lot of scandal," said Jedin. "We know of many cases where these `keepers of concubines' possessed the sympathies of their parishioners and were looked upon as good and virtuous pastors." (ibid page 162)
No finer mind than Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologia II-IIa, 88, 11)had provided stubborn opposition to those who saw celibacy rulings as part of divine law. Thomas contended that the celibacy requirement for Catholic priests was merely Church law that could be reversed by any time by papal or conciliar authority. (MacGregor pages 108-109)
When the Reformation indirectly brought forth the Council of Trent in the mid 1500's, the Roman Catholic Church reformed itself and remodeled the priesthood to its present form. Not only did the Council reiterate the Church's prohibition of a married clergy but also instituted reforms to try to insure the implementation of the decrees of the Church on this subject.
Since the Council of Trent, celibacy has remained Church law, specifically upheld by Pope Paul VI in his 1967 encyclical Sacerdotalis Caelibatus. Despite opposition from half of the bishops attending the Synod of 1971, requests from bishops in the United States, France, and Latin America in 1988, Pope John Paul II has not budged from his opposition to a married priesthood.
Popes who were married
St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)
| Name of Pope | Papacy | Son of |
| St. Damascus I | 366-348 | St. Lorenzo, priest |
| St. Innocent I | 401-417 | Anastasius I |
| Boniface | 418-422 | son of a priest |
| St. Felix | 483-492 | son of a priest |
| Anastasius II | 496-498 | son of a priest |
| St. Agapitus I | 535-536 |
Gordiaous, priest |
| St. Silverus | 536-537 | St. Homidas, pope |
| Deusdedit | 882-884 | son of a priest |
| Boniface VI | 896-896 | Hadrian, bishop |
| John XI | 931-935 | Pope Sergius III |
| John XV | 989-996 | Leo, priest |
| Innocent VIII | 1484-1492 | several children |
| Alexander VI | 1492-1503 | several children |
| Julius | 1503-1513 | 3 daughters |
| Paul III | 1534-1549 | 3 sons, 1 daughter |
| Pius IV | 1559-1565 | 3 sons |
| Gregory XIII | 1572-1585 | 1 son |
History sources:
Oxford Dictionary of Popes; H.C. Lea History of Sacerdotal Celibacy in the Christian Church 1957; E. Schillebeeckx The Church with a Human Face 1985; J. McSorley Outline History of the Church by Centuries 1957; F.A.Foy (Ed.) 1990 Catholic Almanac 1989; D.L. Carmody The Double Cross - Ordination, Abortion and Catholic Feminism 1986; P.K. Jewtt The Ordination of Women 1980; A.F. Ide God's Girls - Ordination of Women in the Early Christian & Gnostic Churches 1986; E. Schüssler Fiorenza In Memory of Her 1984; P. DeRosa Vicars of Christ 1988.
Myth: All priests take a vow of celibacy.
Fact: Most priests do not take a vow. It is a promise made before the bishop.
Myth: Celibacy is not the reason for the vocation shortage.
Fact: A 1983 survey of Protestant churches shows a surplus of clergy; the Catholic church alone has a shortage.
Myth: Clerical celibacy has been the norm since the Second Lateran Council in 1139.
Fact: Priests and even popes still continued to marry and have children for several hundred years after that date. In fact, the Eastern Catholic Church still has married priests.
In the Latin Church, one may be a married priest if:
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