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POPE'S DEATH AND CATHOLICISM'S PROSPECTS IN RUSSIA
Novosti ^ | April 4, 2005 | Pyotr Romanov

Posted on 04/04/2005 10:01:53 AM PDT by annalex

MOSCOW, April 4. (RIA Novosti political commentator Pyotr Romanov) - It seems the only place the pope wanted but could not visit was Moscow. His patience was boundless, but he did not live long enough to see changes in the Russian Orthodox Church.

He, however, was open to the whole world, including Russians. It turned out that establishing contacts with the secular authorities of the new Russia was much easier than with the hierarchs of the Russian Church. The pontiff received Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Putin, the latter of whom has sent the Vatican an unusual letter of condolences. More than a matter of protocol, it was warm and sincere, evidently expressing the President's respect for John Paul II.

Polish-born Karol Wojtyla was the first pope since the Apostles to enter a synagogue. He called Jews the elder brothers of Christians and prayed at the Wailing Wall. As the head of the Catholic Church, he visited a mosque and almost every country, including Orthodox ones, but was not allowed to pray in only one place, Moscow. The pope respected the Christian canons and waited for the Russian Church to change its mind. He has been waiting until his death.

It is not for me to reach a conclusion on the reasons behind the inflexibility of the Church leaders, but their formal explanations about Catholics seizing Orthodox houses of worship are not particularly convincing. In fact, the Vatican could make similar claims in many cases, as in the 20th century and even earlier many temples changed their terrestrial owners several times, all the while serving the same celestial Father. A papal visit to Moscow could have resolved half the contradictions.

I am almost certain that the first Slavic pope was not allowed to the Russian Church's congregation for the same reason that earlier had driven the Communist Party to cover up Western voices: the fear of comparison.

The point is that the Catholic Church was lucky: a man of the greatest moral authority andcharisma occupied its throne, whose personal influence was far greater than that of the Church itself. No matter how much the sick Russian Orthodox Church might have wanted, it could not find his equal, as it had still not made a full recovery after the decades of persecution under the Soviet authorities. Orthodox hierarchs could not bear the thought of the pope in a crowded Moscow square or, even worse, in the Christ the Savior Cathedral. After all, they are only human.

It also explains the unhealthy, not so much religious, as human, response to any movement of the Catholic Church in Russia, even though this competition is not about oil or aluminum, but human souls, which in a democratic country are expected to choose freely. The words "shepherd" and "flock" are just images, because people are obviously not sheep. People that have a right to choose, i.e., to enter the church they want.

I believe that Russia has missed a historic opportunity for rapprochement with the Catholics and, consequently, with much of Western culture. The last man of power in Russia who seriously preached ecumenism and rapprochement with the Catholics was Emperor Paul I of Russia. The last pontiff who perceived Russia, its contradictions and spiritual trials so shrewdly was John Paul II. It was not coincidence that he prayed before a Russian icon as well others.

There are few chances that an equal to the late pontiff will succeed him. After all, when he was a student, some jokers put a sign "beginner saint" - and it seems justly - on his door.

An ordinary archbishop will most probably succeed this rock of a person, who was not afraid to voice words of apology for the Catholic Church's previous sins. A person educated and worthy, but without the traits Karol Wojtyla had. There are people who cannot be replaced.

Certainly, the new pontiff will not be a Slav, and the relations between Moscow and the Roman throne will enter the usual bureaucratic dimension. Delegations will visit each other, agree on something, sign something and mark time.

In other words, a person of the 21st century, the late John Paul II, will be replaced by a person of the 20th century, who will hardly bring about any breakthrough in the future.

As a result, everyone will lose: the Vatican, whose authority will decline inevitably and quickly, Catholicism on the whole, Catholics in Russia and, naturally, the Russian Orthodox Church, which has lost a huge incentive for self-improvement. This is regrettable, as even many Orthodox priests admit that complete recovery is still a distant possibility.

Once John Paul II was asked whether he ever cried, and he said, "Never outside."

Today, a significant part of humanity, regardless of religion, is crying both inside and outside. Everyone in his or her own manner. Together and on their own. Karol Wojtyla deserved this.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Orthodox Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: catholic; johnpaulii; moscow; orthodox; papacy; pope; russia; russianorthodox
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To: kosta50
Many a Russian Orthodox priest and bishbop was killed because of his faith.

Indeed. And they were martyred because they refused to betray the church.

But many did not follow their brave example - in fact many compromised with the Bolsheviks and sold out their brethren like Judas.

If all the clergy are killed what will that accomplish?

In medieval Japan the shoguns murdered every single Catholic priest. The faithful had no Eucharist, no Holy Chrism, no Divine Liturgy, nothing except baptism and memorized Scriptures and prayers.

More than a century later, when the persecution abated, new missionaries were suprised to find that the faithful had preserved themselves as an intact community waiting and hoping for their pastors to return.

What the clergy of Japan accomplished through dying was to provide a witness so compelling that their laity preserved their faith in witness to their example.

Easier said than done my friend. I wonder what you would have done in Russia in 1917 as an Orthodox priest?

(1) I would have gone underground and provided secret pastoral care until I was caught. (2) I would hope that I would have had the courage to die without betraying my flock or my own brother priests in that situation when I was caught.

have you ever spoken to anyone from ROCOR?

141 posted on 04/07/2005 5:57:45 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Cronos

Very true, they are part of the Western Church, but they are not Westerners. Just the same, I do not count the Orthodox in Ethiopia, Egypt, Kenya, Cameroon, Uganda, Syria, Turkey, Kazakstan, Armenia, Korea, China, India or Indonesia. I was strickly speaking of Western culture (aka Europeans). It is very true that there are hundreds of millions of very devout and religious catholics in S.America and Africa, I was just pointing out the issue with the West, particularly western/central Europe.


142 posted on 04/07/2005 7:19:32 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth == Christ)
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To: wideawake
in fact many compromised with the Bolsheviks and sold out their brethren like Judas.

And you feel qualified to judge them? You too are a sinner.

143 posted on 04/07/2005 7:26:30 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: wideawake
have you ever spoken to anyone from ROCOR?

We all know lots of people in ROCOR. What's your point? You think you know so much about this that you can come and tell us about our church? I was baptized in a ROCOR church.

Why don't you go repair the holes in your church walls before you make yourself into a Pharisiacal judge of those who chose not to be tortured or watch their children slowly killed, bones broken one at a time, under communist rule?

The ROCOR Pharisees can go take a hike as well. Lots of mistaken people here who think they can judge others and somehow, just don't sin.

Thank God for my parish.

144 posted on 04/07/2005 7:31:23 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
And you feel qualified to judge them? You too are a sinner.

Yes, I'm a sinner. That doesn't mean that sins of other people didn't happen or are excusable.

And its not a matter of "feeling" - it's a matter of fact. It is a fact that some chose at this time to die rather than betray the church. It is also a fact that some chose to cut a deal to save themselves.

It is denigrating the sacrifice of the martyrs to excuse the traitorous acts of the betrayers.

145 posted on 04/07/2005 7:33:19 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode; Cronos; RussianBoor; A. Pole; Destro; GarySpFc; Lion in Winter
And yet Russian princes allied themselves with the Mongols anyway.

I guess reading is a problem. Only one Russian prince allied with the Mongols, to save himself from lithuanian/Teutonic conquest. The rest were conquered vassals. How nice that you ignore that and the fact that most of the cities were razed. Nothing like not allowing the facts get in the way of your rant.

All vassals paid tribute yearly, which is why some 150 years later, Demetri the Great defeated a mongol horde that came for tribute and started the removal of the Mongol Yoke. Care to try and muddle through why it was called the Mongol Yoke?

In 1241 the Mongols also sacked Poland, invaded Silesia and Hungary. But despite this the Russians prefered to ally themselves with the Mongols anyway. I bet you have a superb explanation for that.

Umm, bright guy, the Mongols retreated out of all of those areas and settled the Golden Horde into what is now southern European Russia. Again, I guess you consider Lebanon allied to Syria, since Syria only holds troops there.

I guess to you Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc were all "allied" to the Turks too, when they were conquered. Sshh, talk about revisionist history.

1223

The Mongol Generals Jebe and Subudey are sent to capture the Shah who had fled south to an island in the Caspian Sea where he died. The Mongol Generals unable to find the Shah are given permission to reconnoiter the Western Lands (Europe). They traveled northern Persia and Transcausia then turned north into Southern Russia. They defeated the Russians and Cumans at the Kalka River. The Prince of Kiev is crushed to death under planks. The Russians had no idea who the Mongels are and called them the Tartars of the East.

1227

The Mongol army conquered the Kara Khitai Kingdom in Turkestan. They also crushed the Persian sultanate of Khwarezam, the kingdoms of Azerbaijan and Georgia and Kievan Russia. Karakorum is the capital of the Mongol Empire and the Chinese would destroy this city in 1388. Emperor Genghis Khan (Lord) died this year after a fall from his horse and his successor Ogadai (Ogodei) (Ugedey) Khan (Lord) subjected Korea and Tebet. The Great Khan (Lord) had said that God has given the whole earth to the Mongols to rule. He would not be able to achieve this in his lifetime but commanded his sons to carry out God's plan. Legend says that his spirit will reappear in a boy

1233

Ogadai (d-1241) Khan (Lord of Lords) captured the Jin dynasty capital city, Kaifeng. Some Mongols wanted to slaughter all the people and turn their lands into pasture for horses. Ogodei heeded a Chinese scholar who argued that if the people lived, and prospered, they could be taxed. The going rate of tax on newly conquered people is about ten percent of possessions.

1235

The Mongol roads between Asia, Europe and the Middle East are considered the safest in known history due to the Mongol maintenance and control. A Mongolian kuriltay at Karakorum resolved to start the conquest of the Southern Song Empire and the Western Lands. The undefined western territory had been granted to Batu's father, Jochi, Genghis's Khan eldest son. The Mongol Batu son Junchi eldest son Chingis Khan (Lord) with chief advisor Subudey and a 120,000 man army is commissioned to the conquest of Europe. His army included newly recruited central Asian Turks.

1236

The Universal Emperor Jenghis Khan (Lord) is succeeded by Ogadai (died 1241) the Lord of Lords who had subjugated Koryo (Korea), the remaining Chin territory in north China. Sixty thousand cavalrymen, along with their support facilities marched west to the Volga River near Kazan, Russia. Novgorod wrote that the godless invaders slew all, both wives and children. News that the Mongol army is heading west reached King Bela IV of Hungary. Soon thousands of refugees poured into his kingdom

1237

The Mongol Empire primary goal is to establish a world empire for international peace. A principle objective is to maintain their great commercial trade routes from the Pacific to the Mediterranean. As a culture they practiced religious tolerance. The Mongol Khan Batu (1205-1255) the Splendid son Juji (Jochi) Khan and grandson of Genghis Khan (Lord) is elected to assembled an army to subject and colonize Europe. The Mongol army included all necessary trade’s people, their houses, wives, children, sheep and cattle. The Bulgar on the Volga River is the first to be subjected. Georgia (Russia), Azerbaijan (east Turkey and West Iran) fell to the Mongol Empire virtually placing Persia (Iran), and Afghanistan under Mongol control and is now called IL Khan (Lord) Empire of Hulagu.

The Mongol reduced the capital city of the Bulgar Kingdom into rubble. The Mongol next marched on Ryazan some 400 miles west. They demanded a tenth of everything as tribute including a tenth of the women and children. The nobles answered only when none of us remains and the Mongols made it so. Moscow is abandoned as the Tartars (Mongol) advance and they burn the city. The Tartars then take Kiyev and because of their defiance the city is destroyed. The Grand Duke George II and his army are destroyed. The Grand Duke is killed. About 40,000 Cumans flee to Hungary rather than submit to General Batu. The Tartar (Mongol) retained control of West Russia for a century and East Russia for two centuries. Russian slaves are employed in the Mongol army as far east as China. The Mongols are known to have sold European slaves to China and Egypt.

1241

Eastern Europe considered this year a year of misery. To escape the Mongol army, 40,000 refugees from the steppe of the Mongolian Russia Empire straggled into Hungary. A division of the Mongol army under Baibars Khan (Lord) destroyed a combined army of Polish, French and Germans at Liegnitz in Silesia. The Mongol army annihilates the Hungarian Army of 40,000 men including the Templars, Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights. The Europeans are devastated as the European knights are no match for the superior Mongol army. About 30,000 well-armed knights are destroyed almost to a man. Those who survived believed they had been defeated by witchcraft. Near the town of Muhi, Hungary 60,000 are killed this spring.

The Mongol (Tartars) advanced on Vienna, Austria and Europe for all intent has no remaining army to resist the Mongol Empire. Krakow, Poland fell to the Mongol on Palm Sunday. The Great Mongol Empire is the largest land empire history has known. Only the death of Emperor Ogadai (Ugedey) in December this year saved Europe from total conquest. General Batu and other Mongolian leaders wanted to take part in the elections on the next great khan (Lord). This election process would take four years. The Mongol objective however is to advance West to the furthest known territory and this short-term objective is attained. Bulgaria and Moldavia became a permanent part of the Mongolian Empire for the next century. Remnants of the Hungarian army reported that the Tartars are using gunpowder in the war. This led the Church to the conclusion that the Tartars are using fire-breathing dragons against the Christians. They are considered the horde from hell itself. Tartars from Tartarus, that part of Hades where the wicked were punished. They had the heads of dogs, and they devoured the bodies of their victims

146 posted on 04/07/2005 7:56:55 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth == Christ)
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To: wideawake

As far as I am concerned you are a traitor. One who badly needs a lesson in humility. Begone from me.


147 posted on 04/07/2005 8:10:49 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
Sorry, pal. You don't get to order me around.

And your hypocrisy is entertaining - if I am, as you say I am, a "traitor" etc. then shouldn't you, in your superior understanding of the Christian mysteries, treat me with pity rather than insults?

I apologize if the facts hurt your sensibilities, but they are still the facts.

148 posted on 04/07/2005 8:16:19 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: donbosco74; Vicomte13; Kolokotronis
The Orthodox have a lot of issues with what they consider Catholic errors and heresy like the Filioque clause, Papal infallibility, purgatory, indulgences, celibate clergy, unleavened Eucharistic bread, improperly prepared Eucharistic wine, divorce, the immaculate conception. Did i leave anything out?
149 posted on 04/07/2005 9:03:21 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: wideawake

You make me ill. You know nothing and think you have the title of judge. May God have mercy on you, so lacking in mercy yourself.


150 posted on 04/07/2005 9:06:06 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema

Well - at least I serve one purpose. I get to make you feel really good about yourself. You're welcome!


151 posted on 04/07/2005 9:14:22 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Cronos
The Orthodox do NOT differ from us on the basic understanding of the Holy Trinity

[...]

the Catholic Church will hasten to say [Filioque] does not [mean a dual origin of the Holy Spirit].

The Orthodox are correct about that: Catholicism teaches the dual procession of the Holy Spirit, and the Orthodox reject it. See

Filioque

, where you'll find the relevant catechism and a very straighforward chapter from the Summa.

152 posted on 04/07/2005 9:43:07 AM PDT by annalex
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To: donbosco74
Here is a link:

http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/tomos1285.html

153 posted on 04/07/2005 10:17:13 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: kosta50; Cronos; sergey1973
The church was martyred by Lenin immediately after the Bolshevik Revolution. Priests were murdered wholesale; those who were not shot on the spot were hauled off to Solovki, where they died.

That was the greatest assault of the Devil on Christ's church since Nero. Mother Russia has never recovered. The hostility to this saintly Pope is another symptom of the wounds that still bleed.

A docile remnant survived physically and is now known as the Orthodox Church in Russia. Initially, few churches were allowed to operate; in rural areas a visit to church could take days. The buildings of the closed churches were desecrated and blown up. Being of solid construction, the stone carcasses still stood. Crows nested in the broken cupolas. The icons were typically rescued by the peasants and hidden in homes. Public religion became the domain of fearless grandmothers and intimidate beyond their wits know-nothing priests that learned to colaborate with the state.

Stalin's near demise in The Second World War in 1941 produced an accomodation. A few more churches were allowed to reopen and persecution of the state-recognized church officials stopped. In return the Church anathemized the Germans and blessed Stalin's regime.

Honest, even heroic priests continued to do their duty in slowly reaching out to the younger generations and teaching the universal values. Nevertheless the Seminaries were wholly penetrated by the agents of the state and the average priest would studiously avoid any political controversy.

There is no reason to think that the interpenetration between the state and the church is any less today. Indeed, it is compatible with the Orthodox model of church-state relations, and the modern Russian state seems to be genuinely sympathetic to the church. Putin, for example, seems to be a church going Christian and so was Yeltsin.

It is entirely possible that the secular forces of the Russian state had an informal say in the Patriarchy's rejection of Vatican's entreaties, but of course, some people need to die or at least retire before we know, -- if ever.

154 posted on 04/07/2005 10:18:20 AM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex

Regardless, if one looks at history, the Church in Russia hasn't been this independent since the time of Peter the Great.


155 posted on 04/07/2005 11:17:03 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth == Christ)
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To: jb6

Comparisons of the political makeup of the Russian Church before and after 1917 are meaningless because post-communist church has not recovered from the devastation it suffered.


156 posted on 04/07/2005 11:41:01 AM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex

Thanks annalex. Very good and touching narrative--appreciate this !

One thing--for quite a long time, Vatican was also an oppressive force when it has too much political power. When politics and religion mix too much or get too closely intertwined, the best of religion (Catholic, Orthodox, etc.) is substituted by dirty political games. Vatican persecution of scientists or free thinkers in middle and to lesser extent renaissance age are perfect examples. With proper division of responsibilities between Church and State instead of complete separation among them, Church can become a moral force for good in the society. When church cannot use state power to coerce people to join it or discriminate against those outside of church, it naturally becomes a moral force instead of rude political power. When Russian Government and Orthodox Church of Russia will find a proper balance of power among them--what is for Church and what is for State--then Russian Orthodox Church will become a genuine force for good.


157 posted on 04/07/2005 2:28:54 PM PDT by sergey1973 (Russian American Political Blogger, Arm Chair Strategist)
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To: sergey1973

Maybe one of these days we shall discuss that "persecution of scientists or free thinkers" myth.

If it were not for the Catholic Church, there would be no scientists or free thinkers to begin with.


158 posted on 04/07/2005 2:37:00 PM PDT by annalex
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To: wideawake
Japan has a total of 1% of its population who are Christian. The other 99% are not. Real success story indeed. Korea is doing much better without the martyrdom.

No doubt there were collaborators, but to charge the entire Church and all its clergy with collaboration is a little paranoid ...

ROCOR seems to have no problems dealing with Alexy II, and ex-"KGB" bishop and now the Patriarch of Russia.

159 posted on 04/07/2005 2:43:58 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex

Well--Burning Heretics at the Stake, Witch Trials, Inquisition (Gallileo, Jordano Bruno, etc.), I suppose not Myths.

Church was (and still is to a certain extent) a primary patron of Arts, Sciences and Humanities--that's true. But we can't deny that it was at one time an oppressive force. Spanish Inquisition and Torquemada (Autonomous from Vatican but still Catholics) are not myths either. After all, why John Paul II chose apology to scientific and Jewish community for historical persecution, even though he had nothing to do with it ?

Actually I would rather not go too much into debate over this. It's hard to look into something (i.e. Christian Church History) objectively if you feel really passionate about it. What I'd rather do is to look forward when Christian Churches will truly become a potent moral force for good.


160 posted on 04/07/2005 2:50:00 PM PDT by sergey1973 (Russian American Political Blogger, Arm Chair Strategist)
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