Posted on 04/04/2005 7:33:19 AM PDT by SmithL
U.S. Roman Catholics adored Pope John Paul II but vast numbers of the nation's 67 million parishioners openly disregard the pontiff's core teachings about abortion, divorce, extramarital sex and birth control.
But Catholics have become more conservative in recent years, a movement fueled, in part, by the growing numbers of more traditional Latino members. Church officials estimate Latinos will comprise half of the U.S. membership within a decade.
A majority of Catholics voted for President Bush, the first time a Republican presidential candidate has taken the Catholic vote. A historic union between conservative Protestants and Catholics helped re-elect Bush.
Catholic Joan Toth of Concord, for one, says she would like American Catholics to stop challenging long-held church doctrine on social issues.
"Some of the hierarchy have conflicting devotions," the 70-year-old said. "They're not supportive of traditional teachings."
It's too soon to know whether this conservative shift will transform American Catholics into more obedient servants of John Paul's teachings or those of the next pope.
Americans' propensity to treat their faith like a buffet, a spoonful of this and a "No, thanks" on that, has diluted the pope's power to dictate their behavior, said Steven Waldman, editor of beliefnet.org and former national editor of U.S. News and World Report.
"The pope is an extraordinarily beloved figure in the American Catholic community even though half of the community disagrees with him on abortion," Waldman said. "In the other direction, a large number of Catholics supported the Iraq War even though the pope opposed it.
"Catholics have the ability to make distinctions in their minds on these issues, and I'm not sure this pope, or the next one, can change that dynamic."
Many U.S. congregates challenge the Vatican by living typical American lives.
They divorce, use birth control and have abortions, although their church forbids the practices, and they clamor for a greater role for women in church leadership or support of gay marriage.
"American Catholicism has been pushing the envelope on many issues," said James Donahue, president of the Berkeley-based Graduate Theological Union, a school specializing in Christian and other teachings. "At the level of the hierarchy, bishops are very much in congress with the establishment. Some of the Catholics themselves are not."
But it's not just parishioners that disagree with the church; count American priests among those who question its doctrines.
Like Catholics around the world, the Rev. Richard Sparks, pastor at Newman Hall Holy Spirit parish in Berkeley, respected the pontiff as a "universal Christian person" who did much to encourage dialogue and understanding in a troubled world.
The priest just wishes his leader had also opened dialogue within the church itself, especially on issues such as divorce and birth control.
"Some Catholics hope that with the next pope, there will be less tension," Sparks said.
On the other side, the Rev. Luis Perez, a Spanish-speaking priest at Queen of All Saints Catholic Church in Concord, said he would like to see the next pope emphasize "the respect for life."
"Everyone wants people to live well and no one to suffer," he said.
Birth control prevents conception on an occasion when it might otherwise take place. Stop being pedantic and/or deliberately obtuse, deacon, you know this. You're just peddling AmChurch, desperately so. It's unseemly.
Do you think Christ's commands to us are mere suggestions? Does "go and sin no more" ring any bells to you? It should, because Christ was perfectly willing to reject those who went and continued to sin.
So does NFP. Let's talk here. Drop the gratuitous slams.
If a couple decides to regulate the size of their family, isn't the motivation to do that or not do that more important than the method?
They won't preach it if they don't believe it themselves. Many have lost their faith, they themselves have been mislead into error by heretical teachers in the seminaries, and some may have never had the faith to begin with.
There are other priests who do hold the faith, but fear repercussions for proclaiming it boldly. We should do our best to support the holy priests and clergy who boldly defend the faith in every way we can, and we should let the collections baskets of the others go empty.
You know the difference and are being deliberately obtuse.
If a couple decides to regulate the size of their family, isn't the motivation to do that or not do that more important than the method?
No. It is not.
Light does not have friendship with darkness and methods routinely used by the secular world to prevent the 'inconvenience' of child bearing. Just think of why there are so many abortions to begin with. Plus many birth control methods are also abortifacients. I'm glad you're not the deacon of my church. Honest. He seems to have a better grasp than you on this.
So, a couple using artificial birth control with six kids is sinful, while a couple using NFP with two children is not. Is that right?
What happened to be fruitful and multiply?
I'm not being obtuse; these are real family situations, with real husbands and wives asking these questions.
I'm doing my best to encourage NFP to engaged couples, but many of them have already made up their minds and pay no attention.
You do them no service by saying or implying "oh, okay, whatever." You have accepted the responsibility to preach the Gospel to them, according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Either step up to that task or step aside.
LOL!! Does he preach on the benefits of NFP from the pulpit? I do. I'm just illustrating what we're facing when talking to Catholic couples. No need for insults, cyborg.
What the hell is fruitful about an abortifacient?
Most of the time, I have no idea what couples are doing. But I know they're doing something because they stop having children after their third or fourth.
Condoms are not abortifacients.
...and the sinfulness of contraception.
I'm not insulting you. I'm just stating an opinion that I think you're weak in defending the argument against artifical means of birth control. Just because a lot of people are doing it doesn't mean it should be accepted. That's all.
I don't recall claiming that.
That's because the Church's argument against contraception IS weak.
But, that's a discussion for another day.
And telling folks that they're not "real" Roman Catholics if they choose contraception, as I've seen suggested on some threads (and rightly rejected by you), would be a decidedly foolish idea.
I see this as akin to some Republicans who tell anyone not in lockstep with their view of the GOP that they should leave the party. It's counterproductive and ignores the 90+% of the issues where all are in agreement.
True and for some of us a major point. I agree with you here Deacon, dogma that is unenforceable and ignored by the vast majority simply does damage to the Church. Far better to draw the line at the taking of human life, be it by the abortionists scissors or the pharmaceuitical companies abortofacients.
It's not at all the same. The Church teaches that which is pleasing to God. The GOP teaches that which is pleasing to man. The Church teaches that which merits eternal salvation. Tax rates are pretty much inconsequential.
Some try NFP and it works fine; it doesn't work for others.
It is simply facetious to tell a couple with six children that they're going to hell because they decide that's all they can have, and NFP doesn't work for them.
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