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To: PetroniusMaximus
That "temporal punishment" is (I believe) most commonly a reference to Purgatory.

Well, only for the case of people who are in purgatory. To give a scriptural example, Nathan told David that he had been forgiven by God, but that he would be punished by the death of his son. So clearly here we have two different types of punishments: eternal punishment (forgiven), and temporal punishment (to be exacted by his son's death). Do you agree that this also applies to NT believers, that they have to expiate their temporal debt for sin? In favor of this, I cite "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance" (Luke 3:8).

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/408604.htm

On the contrary, It is related (2 Kgs. 12:13) that when David penitent had said to Nathan: "I have sinned against the Lord," Nathan said to him: "The Lord also hath taken away thy sin, thou shalt not die. Nevertheless . . . the child that is born to thee shall surely die," which was to punish him for the sin he had committed, as stated in the same place. Therefore a debt of some punishment remains after the guilt has been forgiven.

I answer that, As stated in I-II, 87, 4, in mortal sin there are two things, namely, a turning from the immutable Good, and an inordinate turning to mutable good. Accordingly, in so far as mortal sin turns away from the immutable Good, it induces a debt of eternal punishment, so that whosoever sins against the eternal Good should be punished eternally. Again, in so far as mortal sin turns inordinately to a mutable good, it gives rise to a debt of some punishment, because the disorder of guilt is not brought back to the order of justice, except by punishment: since it is just that he who has been too indulgent to his will, should suffer something against his will, for thus will equality be restored. Hence it is written (Apoc. 18:7): "As much as she hath glorified herself, and lived in delicacies, so much torment and sorrow give ye to her."

Since, however, the turning to mutable good is finite, sin does not, in this respect, induce a debt of eternal punishment. Wherefore, if man turns inordinately to a mutable good, without turning from God, as happens in venial sins, he incurs a debt, not of eternal but of temporal punishment. Consequently when guilt is pardoned through grace, the soul ceases to be turned away from God, through being united to God by grace: so that at the same time, the debt of punishment is taken away, albeit a debt of some temporal punishment may yet remain.

Pugatory is not in the New Testament . When believers die they go to be with the Lord.

Can we get some Scripture for that? Besides the thief, I mean: for expiated his sins anyway: "we receive the due reward of our deeds" (Lk 23:41).

I will do my best to keep this discussion polite, respectful and, hopefully, edifying. Given the darkness of the last few days and all that has befallen poor Terri, I feel a great aversion to needless argument, as I am sure you do.

Certainly.

8 posted on 03/26/2005 3:49:03 PM PST by gbcdoj
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To: gbcdoj
***On the contrary, It is related (2 Kgs. 12:13) that when David penitent had said to Nathan: "I have sinned against the Lord," Nathan said to him: "The Lord also hath taken away thy sin, thou shalt not die. Nevertheless . .***

Compelling argument. Except that it comes from the Old Covenant and sin was handled VERY differently then. I could as easily say that this proves the necessity of worshiping at the temple (2 Sam 12:20). (As an interesting side note, all David's "penance" did no good in turning away God's punishment in this situation.)

There is such a thing as chastening, discipline, punishment, reaping what one has sown.

Revelation 3:19
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."


Hebrews 12:6-9

"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."


It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."


But in the NT all this is seen within the scope of this life and it is to prepare us for the next life. There is no mention of eons of suffering.






***Can we get some Scripture for that? Besides the thief, I mean: for expiated his sins anyway: "we receive the due reward of our deeds" (Lk 23:41).***



Here's one. Paul lays out two possibilities, at home or away...

"We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight.

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

(All mankind must appear, therefore the reference to "good or evil".)


Another striking scripture...

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.

In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

"And you know the way where I am going."

Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."


Two thoughts:

Jesus said "if it were not so, I would have told you." He's talking about heaven. He says he's going to prepare a place and that he's coming back so that they could be with him. He then says IF IT WERE NOT SO (if there was interim millenia of flaming punishment) I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU.

Secondly, Jesus says, "no one comes to the Father but through Me". Catholic theology says "No one (except the very best) comes to the Father but through fiery purgatory."
10 posted on 03/26/2005 4:58:40 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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