Replies

***On the contrary, It is related (2 Kgs. 12:13) that when David penitent had said to Nathan: "I have sinned against the Lord," Nathan said to him: "The Lord also hath taken away thy sin, thou shalt not die. Nevertheless . .***

Compelling argument. Except that it comes from the Old Covenant and sin was handled VERY differently then. I could as easily say that this proves the necessity of worshiping at the temple (2 Sam 12:20). (As an interesting side note, all David's "penance" did no good in turning away God's punishment in this situation.)

There is such a thing as chastening, discipline, punishment, reaping what one has sown.

Revelation 3:19
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Hebrews 12:6-9

"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

But in the NT all this is seen within the scope of this life and it is to prepare us for the next life. There is no mention of eons of suffering.

***Can we get some Scripture for that? Besides the thief, I mean: for expiated his sins anyway: "we receive the due reward of our deeds" (Lk 23:41).***

Here's one. Paul lays out two possibilities, at home or away...

"We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight.

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

(All mankind must appear, therefore the reference to "good or evil".)

Another striking scripture...

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.

In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

"And you know the way where I am going."

Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Two thoughts:

Jesus said "if it were not so, I would have told you." He's talking about heaven. He says he's going to prepare a place and that he's coming back so that they could be with him. He then says IF IT WERE NOT SO (if there was interim millenia of flaming punishment) I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU.

Secondly, Jesus says, "no one comes to the Father but through Me". Catholic theology says "No one (except the very best) comes to the Father but through fiery purgatory."

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Not quite. To "be away from the body" is clearly necessary for being "at home with the Lord", yet the text doesn't say that it's the only thing necessary: I Cor. 3:10-15 would seem to indicate the opposite.

IF IT WERE NOT SO (if there was interim millenia of flaming punishment) I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU.

"If it were not so" refers to the existence of the "many mansions". And I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also does not indicate that there is no intervening state: the purpose of the reception is to that they may be in Heaven, yet they are not immediately placed in heaven after being received, so there seems no objection to supposing that they would go to heaven after making satisfaction for their sins.

Secondly, Jesus says, "no one comes to the Father but through Me". Catholic theology says "No one (except the very best) comes to the Father but through fiery purgatory."

The removal of sins in Purgatory is in virtue of the grace of Christ.

"Here's one. Paul lays out two possibilities, at home or away..."

Yes, but in 2 Timothy Paul lays out a third possiblity. Consider:

"1:16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiph'orus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, 1:17 but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me-- 1:18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day--and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus."

Now, clearly Onesiph'orus has died. And, just as clearly, Paul is praying the Lord show him mercy.

Now, if we are either, 'home or away,' as classical Protestant theology holds, then why is Paul praying for a dead man? Certainly, under Protestant theology, such prayers can have no effect? Either Onesiph'orus is with the Lord -or he isn't! Paul's prayer for him, however, illustrates a third possiblity -the possiblity Onesiph'orus is somewhere where he could still need and, more importantly, use God's mercy, i.e. Purgatory.

Under Protestant theology, one must conclude St. Paul, here, is violating what we Catholics hold is the Second Commandment, taking the Lord's name in vain. Essentially, if Protestants are right, then St. Paul, here, is making a HUGE theological error calling on God to show mercy to a dead man. Moreover, we must conclude the Holy Spirit somehow slipped up and did not immediately provide us with a correction to this error on Paul's part.

With the Catholic conception of Purgatory, however, Paul's words here make total sense.