What Religious Days Did Jesus Observe?

You're exerpt is from someone who uses the word, "Romish." The use of a non-standard perjorative doesn't speak well of someone's frame of references when they make unfounded assertions ("we have reason to believe...") Of the groups they identify, there is much better reason to quabble than what would be merely ad-hominem:

There are several sites on the internet that I looked at. I happened to choose this one because it succinctly summarized some groups that were thought to keep the sabbath during the time period in question. I had no idea the term "Romish" was considered an insult. I'm not sure if the author meant it as an insult or as a term referring to the church in Rome.

As for the rest of the post, I'm not going to analyze the believes and practices of each group. I'm certain that the church/state in prominence at the time wouldn't necessarily portray their beliefs in a fair and unbiased manner.

He instituted the symbols of the wine and bread ON Passover.

Then you are saying Jesus changed the Passover from how it was previously celebrated. How do you celebrate it? As jews celebrate it or changed as you believe Jesus changed it. What is your passover celebration, how does it vary from that of the jews?

Passover not only portended the sacrifice of Christ, but he commanded us to observe it as a remembrance of his sacrifice

I'm not jewish but I don't think the jewish celebration of Passover includes: "this is my body, eat.." does it? Again, how does your celebration of Passover differ from that of the jews before Jesus changed it?

Because Jesus Christ had already created all of the holy days that mankind would ever need…

So you say.

God didn't need man to invent…God had plenty of opportunities to tell us that we should have new holy days…

He established His Church. God doesn't "need" man for anything. He, obviously uses man in His work.

It is not an organization…

You adhere to the teachings of a church organization. It has it's own tradition.You can rail against organization or tradition, but no human starts from scratch and develops in a vacuum.

I do attend worship services

I'm very glad to hear that. Too often the "modern" view is "I don't need no organized religion" when religion most deeply involves community.

United was formed by approximately 20,000 former members of the Worldwide Church of God.

I have a close friend who belonged to the WWWCG. I would think the experience would make one even more appreciative of a church that manages in this world to persevere for centuries. New churches, new teachings come and go in waves, making their predictions and proclamations, then splitting and falling and passing away and usually shouting some "revelation" that the church that has stood for millennia preaching the Word of God "has it all wrong.".

I hope you will understand my skepticism.

I have but a vague idea of how Jews celebrate the Passover. Churches of God in general have a Passover service. In that service scripture is read concerning the Passover (from both old and new testaments) and a short sermon is given. Unleavened bread and wine is passed out and consumed by the congregation in remembrance of Christ and his sacrifice. Footwashing (as commanded by Christ in John 13:14,15) is then performed...men wash men's feet and women wash women's feet. It's a pretty solemn occassion, meant to bring to remembrance the gravity of what Christ accomplished.

Sounds somewhat similar. Ours is the end of Lent - 40 days.

Footwashing is on Holy Thursday, Good Friday is about Jesus's passion.

Easter Vigil starts with the Liturgy of Light, symbolic of Jesus Christ the new creation, the Light of the World.

The first reading was Genesis 1:1-22; the second Genesis 22: 1-18; third, Exodus 14L15-15:1; fourth, Isaiah 54:5-14 (my favorite this time); fifth Isaiah 55:1-11; sixth Baruch 3:9-15, 32, 4:4; seventh Ezekiel 36:16-28.

Then came Glory to God.

Then Romans 6:3-11 and then Luke 24: 1-12. Psalm were read and sung between each scripture reading.

Then the Bishop spoke on the revelation of God, the resurrection of Christ and the sanctity of life everlasting.

Then came baptisms. Then confirmations. Then renewal of baptismal promises, renunciation of sin, profession of faith.

The the Liturgy of the Eucharist, including the Lord's Prayer and Holy Communion. Then we sang "Lamb of God" had the final blessing and closing song of "Jesus Christ is Risen Today"

O. K. by you?

You adhere to the teachings of a church organization. It has it's own tradition.You can rail against organization or tradition, but no human starts from scratch and develops in a vacuum.

Let me repeat myself:

The church I belong to is the body of Christ. It is not an organization, but the spiritual body of believers who follow the teachings of Christ and believe on him for salvation. This is the same church established in Acts 2 and that is the church of which I am a member.

United Church of God could cease to exist and I would still be a member of the church described above.

Now certainly United has traditions, some of which I agree with and some which I don't. But those traditions could disappear and it wouldn't make much of a difference in how I worship God.

I have a close friend who belonged to the WWWCG. I would think the experience would make one even more appreciative of a church that manages in this world to persevere for centuries.

I can not speak from actual experience about the World Wide Church of God because I was never a member. However, I know many people who were. Most I know had great experiences, some I know had bad experiences. However the bad experiences came about (I believe) because of poor decisions and/or poor interpretation of scripture by individual ministers, not corporate policy. In short, some ministers got on power trips.

Now I also happen to believe that the church has persevered for centuries...just not as one corporate entity. I don't think United or Worldwide represents the whole Church of God anymore than I think Roman Catholicism represents the whole Church of God. I think God calls people out of all sects and denominations.

Naturally though I do believe that United most faithfully follows the doctrines of the first century church established by Christ. It is for that reason I worship with them.

I do understand your skepticism. I get it a lot. I'm well aware that many considered Worldwide a cult and that some today, by extension, believe that United is similar. However, the only things really the same is some of the doctrine. I think the biggest difference is the attitude of the ministry. The ministry makes a true effort toward "servant led" leadership and don't consider themselves above the flock. They recognize that each member, including themselves, plays a role in both the body of Christ and the corporate church.

The the Liturgy of the Eucharist, including the Lord's Prayer and Holy Communion. Then we sang "Lamb of God" had the final blessing and closing song of "Jesus Christ is Risen Today"
O. K. by you?

I've said many times to Catholics in this forum that I won't argue with their tradition. Even though I don't think it's right it's at least logical because Catholics believe that they have the authority of God to make any and all changes they want.

Personally I want to follow the biblical examples as closely as possible because I believe that this is the expressed mind of God to man. That is why I keep the sabbath and the holy days.

Do you read Acts to find when and where they're meeting?

Doug, gimme a break, you go to a church with people, it has "principles and beliefs" and meeting times and services, it raises money and pays bills, rent or mortgage, it has business meetings and meetings to decide how things are to be done. It's ORGANIZED. If you're not a "member" then you're only fooling yourself and cheating them on their rolls.

I'm well aware that many considered Worldwide a cult and that some today, by extension, believe that United is similar. However, the only things really the same is some of the doctrine.

Not a cult to me, but "new" and based on the teaching of Garner Ted Armstrong in the last 20-30 years or so. If it helps you fine, but you're not getting anywhere telling me it's "old time Christianity."

Catholics believe that they have the authority of God to make any and all changes they want… Personally I want to follow the biblical examples…

This right after you tell me the "variations" on passover celebration your church has made with their "authority."

You didn't dream this up, Doug, it's Armstrong's. You don't go find some random group of "body of Christ," you go to the UCG, an organized group of like followers of the teachings of Garner Ted Armstrong, that's your authority.

Again, whatever helps you in your path toward a closer walk with God - is fine with me.

But don't tell fellow Christians they're too "new," too "organized" or acting without proper authority .

You are too vulnerable of that criticism to project it on others, so why would you want to; it comes back on you so easily? Why not just wish all members of the Body of Christ come together in love and awe and gratitude of Our God.

best wishes to you and yours on this Holy Day.

Do you read Acts to find when and where they're meeting? Doug, gimme a break, you go to a church with people, it has "principles and beliefs" and meeting times and services, it raises money and pays bills, rent or mortgage, it has business meetings and meetings to decide how things are to be done. It's ORGANIZED. If you're not a "member" then you're only fooling yourself and cheating them on their rolls.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying and I'm not sure why you're having a problem. I'm assuming it's because you don't see a difference between a church organization and the body of Christ...correct?

Incorrect. It's based on the bible. Herbert Armstrong didn't come up with anything new. All basic doctrine he expoused had been expoused by others in the past and all had its origins in the pages of the bible.

This right after you tell me the "variations" on passover celebration your church has made with their "authority."

I'm a little puzzled. The Passover service I described varies little from how Christ commanded it be kept. The basic elements are the bread, wine and foot washing, all commanded by Christ to be done on Passover. Now I will admit that the reading of scripture and the sermon are traditions for the service based on biblical examples. We could just as easily lose them as they are not essential to the service.

But don't tell fellow Christians they're too "new," too "organized" or acting without proper authority . You are too vulnerable of that criticism to project it on others, so why would you want to; it comes back on you so easily? Why not just wish all members of the Body of Christ come together in love and awe and gratitude of Our God.

I think members of the body of Christ exist in all organizations, but no organization is composed wholly of the body of Christ. This isn't radical. As Christ said, there are tares among the wheat. This is true in United as it is in Catholicism. I'm sorry if you're offended by this attitude. I certainly wish all members of the body of Christ to come together in awe and gratitude of our God, but that doesn't include compromising on the doctrines that God set forth in the bible and that Christ taught us to observe.

Hey Doug :)

What is your response to Acts 15, where the apostles and Church elders met in Jerusalem and decided that Gentiles need not observe the Law of Moses, but to only abstain from things sacrificed to idols, fornication, drinking of blood, and eating strangled meat. They said if you follow this, you will do well. There was no mention of observing Holy Days, dietary customs, or cleaning rituals.

If these Holy Days and dietary customs needed to be observed, then why not put them in the letter. In fact the letter they sent listed the essential items, yet no reference to the things you preach.

JM

Forgive me for butting in.....but after reading Acts 15 as you suggested I still do not see any abolishment of God's Holy Days. God establised these Sabbaths and Feast Days forever(for all generations),Leviticus Chapter 23 and Jesus observed all of these Days and Sabbaths.

You are confusing the abolishment of the ritualistic civil code of Moses(Deuteronomy Chapter 27) with the establishment of God's Holy Days, a different thing altogether. The Levitical priesthood was also abolished and Jesus became our new High Priest....Hebrews Chapter 8....but still no abolishment of God's Sabbaths and Feast days.

By the way, this would have been an excellent time for Peter to tell everyone that the Sabbath was now abolished(Acts 15:21)....but he did not!

Your logic does not follow.

The feast days were something that were unique to the Jews and were not practiced by the Gentiles. The counsel at Jerusalem wrote their letter to the Gentiles to clear up confusion caused by saved Jews who were telling the Gentiles that they needed to observe the Law in order to be saved. If they were supposed to keep the feasts, then they would surely have told them in this letter.

Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.

The Gentiles, who had never been in the practice of observing the Law, were given a list of 4 essential things to observe, guided by the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of feast or dietary custom. Would not this have been the opportune time to do this?

Also note the comment in Acts 15:21 is NOT in the letter.

Listen to what the Holy Spirit through Paul says in Galatians 3:3 - Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

JM

What is your response to Acts 15, where the apostles and Church elders met in Jerusalem and decided that Gentiles need not observe the Law of Moses, but to only abstain from things sacrificed to idols, fornication, drinking of blood, and eating strangled meat. They said if you follow this, you will do well. There was no mention of observing Holy Days, dietary customs, or cleaning rituals.
If these Holy Days and dietary customs needed to be observed, then why not put them in the letter. In fact the letter they sent listed the essential items, yet no reference to the things you preach.

Is it your position that the letter included anything and everything that the gentiles were to observe and anything else was up to them?

For example the letter mentions nothing about not killing, nothing about having false gods, nothing about hating your neighbor and nothing about greed. In fact, there are thousands of things NOT mentioned that any Christian would recognize as sinful behavior.

The answer of course is that this letter didn't occur in a vacuum. The gentiles WERE being taught to obey and observe the basic tenents of Judaism and early Christianty...in other words they were being taught about the sabbath, holy days and ten commandments. Thankfully God left us clear scriptural record that this was so:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

See there...verse 21? Every sabbath the gentiles were learning about God's law in the synagogues.

You can't have it both ways on this. If you are saying that omission of specific instruction in the bible is permission to disregard the bible on God's holy days then it's also permission to disregard the bible in every other moral precept and law that God enumerated in the old testament.

Doug. Are you arguing just to be arguing?

I was going to say the same about you!

Read the posts again. I'll reply tomorrow if you still wish.

I read them again. I still don't get it. Yes, United is an organization. Yes, I associate with United. Yes United has a corporate charter. But actually my local congregation is incorporated on it's own separate and apart from United. I am an officer of our local board and we choose to associate ourselves with United. Many United congregations operate in this same fashion.

But all that is just "business" if you will. I am first and foremost a member of the body of Christ, the same body of Christ that Peter, Paul, Luke and John were members of. Christ is the only place where my allegience is. If you doubt that then there's not much more left to say about the subject.

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