Posted on 03/12/2005 1:33:40 PM PST by Grey Ghost II
GG, thanks very much for posting this fine tribute and devotion to St. Joseph.
Where did the 'virginal husband' come from? There isn't any reference to whether Joseph was a virginal husband, is there?
I think there is no good reason to make up things that we really do not know about.
I agree - calling St Joseph 'virginal' is downright odd. Further, while the virgin birth is mentioned in scripture, I don't think it is ever explicitly referenced that Mary remained a virgin her whole life.
What is with the compulsion to extrapolate this kind of stuff? It's just odd to me.
St. Joseph was not previously married before being espoused to the Blessed Virgin Mary - who remained ever virgin - hence Saint Joseph also.
Is there a scriptural support that Mary was always a virgin?
There are also numerous citations by Our Lord in the Gospels, by St. Paul in the Epistles, as well as other OT & NT passafes praising virginity as the most desired state if one can keep it.
The Blessed Virgin Mary was also as St. Luke relates in the gopsel of the angelic salutation, "Full of grace", "gratia plena", "kerataow", in the Greek the most emphatic of the three. In other words without the stain of original sin, being preserved from the moment of her conception by the foreshadowing of the Redemptive Sacrifce of her Divine Son. Therefore the concupiscence of the flesh and spirit that afflicts the rest of us had no hold at all on her and she was the most chaste and perfect tabernacle to safeguard the Most Precious and Holy Son of the Father.
What amkes you think, after all of that, that the Father would ever permit the Holy Tabernacle of Mary to be corrupted or tainted in any way???
Attacks against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this regard become direct blasphemies on God the Almighty Father.
Not an attack, not at all.
But I don't see how her having a sexual relationship with her loving husband is somehow corrupting her in any way.
And aren't there ambiguous scriptural reference(s) to siblings of Jesus, too?
I am a practicing catholic, and honor Mary, and accept both her Immaculate Conception and the virgin birth. That being said, I don't see why any of that inexorably leads to a conclusion that she remained a virgin after the virgin birth.
26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?
35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
OK, bear with me as I post scriptual references to virginity as being the more perfect state. The implication being that if it is for the rest of us, it was most certainly for the Blessed Mother.
And aren't there ambiguous scriptural reference(s) to siblings of Jesus, too?
Aramaic uses the eqivalent of "kin" and apllies it to cousins as well as siblings. These are the references you mean, as to the Apsotle St. James the Lesser, the cousin of Christ, who later became the first bishop of Jerusalem.
As for Catholic practice, the ancient prayer of the Confiteor" "I confess, to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever virgin, to blessed Michael the archangel,...."
Don't you think, even as just a practical matter, that subsequent marital relations would cause the supernatural origin of Christ to be questioned?
As far at the Catholic prayer goes, they represent church beliefs. Like I said, I don't doubt that church organizations came adhere to beliefs (some that have dubious scriptural backing).
So for me, I still don't see any explict scriptural reference to Mary remaining a lifelong virgin, and extrapolating other references to that situation is dubious at best - there is explict scriptural reference to being fruitful and multiplying, as well as establishing a carnal relationship with a spouse - to me, that's not notably corrupting.
Jeremias xxxi, 22: How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? [i.e. Israel] for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.
Matthew 1, 18-25:
18 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost.
19 Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. For he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying:
23 Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife.
25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.
{Nothing implied about aftwerwards by this in the least. Virginity references next.}
Its observance possible:
Matthew 19, 10-12:
10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.
11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given.
12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mothers womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.
When vowed to be kept:
1 Timothy v, 11-12:
11 But the younger widows avoid. For when they have grown wanton in Christ, they will marry:
12 Having damnation, because they have made void their first faith.
Virginity, its excellence:
1 Corinthians, vii, 7-8, 17, 25-27, 32-34, 37-40:
7 For I would that all men were even as myself. But every one hath his proper gift from God: one after this manner, and another after that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I.
17 But as the Lord hath distributed to every one, as God hath called every one: so let him walk. And so in all churches I teach.
25 Now, concerning virgins, I have no commandment of the Lord: but I give counsel, as having obtained mercy of the Lord, to be faithful.
26 I think therefore that this is good for the present necessity: that it is good for a man so to be.
27 Art thou bound to a wife? Seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? Seek not a wife.
32 But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord: how he may please God.
33 But he that is with a wife is solicitous for the things of the world: how he may please his wife. And he is divided.
34 And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord: that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world: how she may please her husband.
37 For he that hath determined, being steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but having power of his own will: and hath judged this in his heart, to keep his virgin, doth well.
38 Therefore both he that giveth his virgin in marriage doth well: and he that giveth her not doth better.
39 A woman is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth: but if her husband die, she is at liberty. Let her marry to whom she will: only in the Lord.
40 But more blessed shall she be, if she so remain, according to my counsel. And I think that I also have the spirit of God.
Apocalypse xiv, 3-5::
3 And they sung as it were a new canticle, before the throne and before the four living creatures and the ancients: and no man could say the canticle, but those hundred forty-four thousand who were purchased from the earth. 4 These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth there was found no lie: for they are without spot before the throne of God.
John xx, 30: Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
John xxi, 25: 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
2 Thessalonians, ii, 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.
The Church gave us the Bible, not vice versa.
Sacred Tradition gave us Sacred Tradition, not vice versa.
The various writings of the Old and New Testamenta were not compiled together except through the labors of Saint Jerome and the inspired declaration of the Church, in Council, as to the authenticity of each item - well over 300 years after each of the Gospels were written, as well as of the Resurrection of Our Lord.
Ironically, I was reading from Mary Agreda's "Mystical City of God" and some of the mentionings of him in several of the chapters. Not a whole lot is written about him in scripture, especially around the time of his death. Unfortunately, I haven't known much about him, up until what I've read today (including this article).
We owe much to St. Joseph, I'm beginning to understand. Thanks again.
Hitman... if you want scriptural reference go to Genesis when God promises a Savior to Adam and Eve:
"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." ... "As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughter.." Canticles ii, 2, etc, this is why the lily is the symbol of purity, virginity, chastity.
Also, Exodus, where God appears to Moses in the burning bush, and there are many others verses in the old testament, expecially in the Song of Songs, which the Church, the sole interpreter of Scripture has attributed to Mary since the very beginning... you can see this in the writitngs of the Early Church Fathers: St. Jerome, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ambrose etc.. and these interpretation cannot be considered "religious cultural reference."
But also, look at the Angels, virginity (chastity) is called the angelical virtue, it makes sense that Mary, the Mother of God, has to surpass the Angels in this virtue. Mary, the Mother of God, MUST be the example of ALL virtues for Angels and men. This is WHY God did not take Her virginity when He asked Her to be the Mother of Her Son, otherwise, St. Joseph could have well been the carnal/biological Father of Jesus.
When Mary said to the Angel, "How will this be, since I know not man..," the Church (St. Jerome) interpretes it to mean that Mary said this because She was not going to know any other man, and there was no way She would even know any man: that is why She asks "how will this be.." because She was going to get married to St. Joseph, and sexual relations are expected in every single marriage.. it would n ot make sense that She would ask this questions, then. ALso, after the Angel explained to Her how it would come to happen, She said, "Let it be done to me according to thy word," Meaning that the only way She would give birth to a child would be the way the Angel told Her, and not any other way. Remember also, that God punished Zachariah for asking the angel how his wife would give birth since they were both old because it meant that he doubted, BUT when Mary ASKED, She was not punished, the Angel explained to Her how it would come to pass, and it was not a sign of doubt, but of prudence because, it is the Catholic beleif, that She had already vowed Her Virginity to God, and that She would forst renounce to be the Mother of God, than to break Her vow of Virginity.. according to the Church and the Church Fathers. And of course, it was God Who inspired Mary to make that vow of virginity to Him, so He was not going to make Her break that vow.
As i said before, there are many other biblical passages in the Old Testament that are applied to Mary, but I do not have time right now to post them all. Just remember the care God took to make sure that the old Ark of the Covenant was the best that there could be, how not just any one was allowed to touch it, and how, from the very beginning there has been no doubt in the Christian mind, that Mary remained a Virgin.. of course that is until martin luther came along, but even he believed Mary's Perpetual Virginity before his revolt.
Also, we know that Jesus is called the firstborn of Mary, because well, He was the first Son She had, but if She had others, where were they when Jesus "got lost" at the age of 12? And most importantly, Why did Jesus leave Mary to "His brothers" instead of to St. John the Evangelist? It was the custom that sons had to take care of their mothers.
Above all, you have to remember that the New Testament, was to teach, mainly, about Jesus, not Mary.. and this not because Mary's role is not important, but people had to know about Jesus in order to believe.
And then.. there is this verse (from Mary's Magnificat): "My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name..."
What were these "great things" the Lord made for Her? Also, the fuller one is to God, the lesser we resemble the ways of men. Purity, Chastity, and Virginity are the most difficult virtues to practice... there have been many, many Saints who have in imitation of Mary, why would Mary Herself not practice it?
While everything you say is valid, they are reasons she is a virgin at conception and at birth.
They are not compelling reasons why she would inexorably and necessarily be a virgin afterwards.
Your extrapolation leads to conjecture that is untenebale - you can't point to one direct scriptural reference that Mary always remained a virgin after the birth. No one can.
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