Gay Advocacy Group: We'd Rather Walk Apart

Stand Firm (Mississippi) ^ | 2/28/2005 | unknown

[sionnsar]

Oasis California, the California chapter of the Episcopal gay advocacy group Oasis, has rejected the Primates' call for moratoria on same-sex blessings and ordination to the episcopacy of non-celibate homosexuals.

"We utterly reject the notion of a moratorium on the blessing of same-sex unions as incompatible with our experience of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of same-sex couples, the biblical command to love God and neighbor, and our baptismal promise to respect the dignity of every human being," the Oasis Board stated in responding to the Anglican Primates' Communiqué.

I spoke with Oasis California spokesman Thomas C. Jackson on the telephone, and after a lengthy conversation he declined to indicate any scenario in which Oasis would support either moratorium.

This leads, naturally, to speculation as to whether the leading Episcopal gay advocacy group - Integrity - will also refuse to proceed under the terms of the Windsor Report as requested under the Dromantine Communique. And, a careful reading of the Oasis statement, which contains this:

"We are mindful that our bishop has announced his retirement and called for the election of his successor," the Oasis Board continued. "We support the Diocesan Standing Committee’s commitment to follow the procedure for an episcopal election as set forth in church law, and its refusal to discriminate against any qualified clergy who might be nominated in the course of the search process."

...might make one wonder what the Diocese of California has in mind for its next annual council.

Press release is here. Statement is here.

Link | Comments (3)

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[Freakazoid]

I don't understand your reference point.

In what manner is that "Western"?

[Kolokotronis]

Oh it isn't particularly Western, in fact the Greek is quite clear; Mark, Luke and Matthew said exactly that. Whhen I wrote this I was in the process of a discussion with a Roman Catholic on another thread about seeking out suffering in some sort of effort to physically join in the Passion of Christ and thereby advance in theosis. The quote in question was used to justify the Roman's position. I said the concept of seeking out suffering, especially to join in the Passion was Western and not Orthodox. The "mindset" bled over into this thread. Mea culpa!

[The Grammarian]

There is nothing holy or Christlike in sodomy or adultery. But whatever fate awaits these people in the next life is not a result of any discrimination on the part of God.

I think you misunderstand what is meant by 'discrimination.' God's very act of judgment between faithful and condemned is discrimination. It is discriminating--that is, separating from one another--between the faithful and damned. So while I don't disagree that homosexuality will not be the ultimate reason that homosexuals end up in hell, God does discriminate. And thank God he does, or we would all be in Hell, believer and unbeliever alike.

[Kolokotronis]

"I think you misunderstand what is meant by 'discrimination.' God's very act of judgment between faithful and condemned is discrimination. It is discriminating--that is, separating from one another--between the faithful and damned." Well, many of the Fathers positively deny that God discriminates in any way at all in His Love. They also say that God's Love is fire. Maybe we are saying the same thing using different words, but somehow I don't think so. A very modern American Orthodox saint wrote:

‘“The end of the world” signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation. Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye. ... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds. Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience! All will become clear to the human conscience. The Prophet Daniel, speaking of the Last Judgement, relates how the Ancient of Days, the Judge, sits on His throne, and before Him is a fiery stream (Dan. 7:9-10). Fire is a purifying element; it burns sins. Woe to a man if sin has become a part of his nature: then the fire will burn the man himself. ‘This fire will be kindled within a man: seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instantly. The very state of a man's soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left. ‘The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears “Come unto Me, ye blessed.” And conversely the same words will call the fire of horror and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime! ‘The Last Judgement knows of no witnesses or written protocols! Everything is inscribed in the souls of men and these records, these “books”, are opened at the Judgement. Everything becomes clear to all and to oneself. ‘And some will go to joy, while others — to horror. ‘When “the books are opened”, it will become clear that the roots of all vices lie in the human soul. Here is a drunkard or a lecher: when the body has died, some may think that sin is dead too. No! There was an inclination to sin in the soul, and that sin was sweet to the soul, and if the soul has not repented of the sin and has not freed itself from it, it will come to the Last Judgement also with the same desire for sin. It will never satisfy that desire and in that soul there will be the suffering of hatred. It will accuse everyone and everything in its tortured condition, it will hate everyone and everything. “There will be gnashing of teeth” of powerless malice and the unquenchable fire of hatred. ‘A “fiery gehenna” — such is the inner fire. “Here there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Such is the state of hell.’" Saint John Maximovitch, The Last Judgement, Orthodox Word (November-December, 1966): 177-78.

Note what St. John says will "cast him to one side or the other....", the state of each man's soul, not God.

[pro610]

Is this Gay group actually saying they are in the presence of the Holy Spirit and living in sin?
Romans chapter 1 makes it very clear on what is sin in regard to human sexuality.
Is this unpardonable sin?
For a sinner to say he or she is in the presence of the Holy Spirit while living a life of sin sounds to me like unpardonable sin.

(Matthew 12:31-32)
"That,I assure you,is why every sin,every blasphemy,will be forgiven men,but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven,but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven,either in this age or the age to come.

[Agrarian]

This is a great, succinct passage summarizing Orthodox teaching on the Last Judgment. Of course, given my love for St. John M., it is not surprising that I like it. Good reading in preparation for this upcoming Sunday of the Last Judgment.

The second sticheron at Saturday evening Vespers begins: "The books will be opened.." I had always wondered about that sticheron, and the plural of "books" rather than "book," as in "the book of life." When St. John writes that each "book" is the soul of each man, it certainly becomes clear.

I will this evening try to remember to post these stichera from the files in my computer -- in which most of the teaching of the Church on the Last Judgment is summarized.

[sionnsar]

This is a great, succinct passage summarizing Orthodox teaching on the Last Judgment.

It was interesting -- while reading that I realized that this passage fit with my (new, beginning) understanding of the Orthodox mindset. So different from what seems like, by comparison, the legal mindset of the West.

[pharmamom]

It is not theosis, per se, which we attain by works. Theosis, becoming like God, is only by grace, but as the Father +Peter says, we keep it, to the extent we have have it, by works. In this sense, the Eastern Fathers stand opposed to any concept of an instant salvation or any sort of anti-lapsarian mindset nor at the same time do they ascribe to any notion of theosis through works.

It is clearer, thank you. It sounds not unlike the Calvinnist doctrine of predestination--not the original event of being predestined or not, but of the fact that even if one is predestined, one can "lose" it and hence salvation. But in a much nicer, mystical way, of course.

[pharmamom]

I practice hatha yoga (the physical postures portion of yoga) and have read a bit about Buddhism. Without equating Christianity and Buddhism, let me say that the eastern mind does lend itself more gracefully to the mystical idea of becoming like God. Of course, in Buddhism, one doesn't become like God, but one does live every aspect of spirituality in an effort to not be "attached" to this world. Obviously, Buddhism fails because of a lack of God and grace, but the ideas are not dissimiliar, I think.

[AZConcervative]

Actaully deeds do not matter. The bible clearly states this fact. However, as a Christian we are called to be Christ-like and in that there is the foregone conclusion that we will not commit evil deeds. Not that any of us will be perfect at it, but the Lord knows our hearts.

Christians by their nature do "good" deeds, because that is Christ-like and non-Christians do both good and bad deeds. If a Christian willfully performs a bad deed without remorse, then they are not a Christian. Many good deed doing people will be incredibly disappointed on the day of their judgement because they have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, which is unrefutabley the only way to enter the gates of Heaven.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

If deeds are the manifestation of true repentance and faith then they do in fact matter. They don't save us, but they do matter. Also, there will be the Judgement Seat of Christ where Christians will be judged and rewarded -- or not.

Non Christians will be judged based on their evil deeds. It is those deeds that prick their conscience and show them their guilt before God and their need for redemption. The doctrine of sin is vital to the Gospel message.

For the Christian, faith without works is dead. That's all I am saying. But you are right that salvation is not by works. Still, clearly the Bible teaches that deeds matter. If they didn't we wouldn't have needed a Savior.

[AZConcervative]

Non-christians will not be judged for their deeds, be them evil or not. Deeds do not matter. Like I said, by being Christ-like, we Christians by our very nature will perform good works. But the only question asked at our judgement will be have you accepted Jesus Christ as the only way to heaven. The bible is very clear on this. You are either a Christian or you are not. There is no middle ground. As far as the word of God is concerned, that is where it begins and ends.

[pharmamom]

Hey guys, in case you post a reply tonight (Thursday)...I'm off to the ER with my youngest (it's a regular trip for us)....will reply back later.

[Kolokotronis]

"It sounds not unlike the Calvinnist doctrine of predestination--not the original event of being predestined or not, but of the fact that even if one is predestined, one can "lose" it and hence salvation."

In Orthodox Christianity there is no sense at all of predestination in the Calvinist understanding of the term. Humanity, indeed all of creation, was created, ex nihilo, with the potential to be divinized. By the Fall, we inherit a propensity to sin which otherwise would not have existed. Evil entered the world and infected and infects all of creation. Until the Incarnation, neither man nor creation could become divinized, and man died apparently absolutely. By His Incarnation God became humanized that Humans might become divinized. By His Death and descent into Hades, Christ burst the bonds of Hell. By His Glorious Resurrection He destroyed Death. The Great Father St. John Chrysostomos wrote in his Pascal Sermon which Orthodox Christians have listened to every Pascha for more than 1700 years:

"Let no one grieve at his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Death of our Savior has set us free. He has destroyed it by enduring it. He destroyed Hades when He descended into it. He put it into an uproar even as it tasted of His flesh. Isaiah foretold this when he said, "You, O Hell, have been troubled by encountering Him below." Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with. It was in an uproar because it is mocked. It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed. It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated. It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive. Hell took a body, and discovered God. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see. O death, where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory? Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated! Christ is Risen, and the evil ones are cast down! Christ is Risen, and the angels rejoice! Christ is Risen, and life is liberated! Christ is Risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead; for Christ having risen from the dead, is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep."

Since the Resurrection Christ through His Church has shown us the way to Theosis. The process is like a Ladder which we climb to God. All along the climb, the angles and saints encourage us onward, while the demons of the Evil One attempt to distract us, to cause us to slip back or even fall off the ladder into the Pit. Here is an icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent, with apologies to those who already know what it is:

Starting up the Ladder is no assurance that any of us will make it to Christ at the top. In fact, several of those people you see falling off are priests or monks and the second one from the bottom falling off, from a low rung at that, is a bishop!

[AlbionGirl]

...and the second one from the bottom falling off, from a low rung at that, is a bishop!

How embarrassing! LOL!

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Why will non-Christians go to hell then, if not for their evil deeds?

You've basically got the right idea, but in my opinion you are failing to look at the meaning behind it.

We are all condemned because of sin -- DEEDS.
The blood of the Lamb meets the requirements of the law -- penalty of death for sinful deeds -- because the Lamb was a perfect sacrifice.
Those who reject the Lamb still stand condemned for their sin -- Evil DEEDS.

Ps. 9:7. But the Lord abides forever; He has established His throne for judgment.

Eccl. 12:14, Because God will bring every act to judgement, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Matt. 12:36, "And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgement."

Verses about the Judgment of Believers' Works: 1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10

Sinners Judged: Rev. 20:11-15, And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Notes on the above versus in Ryrie Study Bible: Here is pictured the judgment of the unbelieving dead. It occurs at the close of the millennium; it is based on works, in order to show that the punishment is deserved (v. 12, though of course these unsaved people are first of all in this judgment because they rejected Christ as Savior during their lifetimes); and it results in everyone in the judgment being cast into the lake of fire. This is the resurrection of jedgment (John 5:29).

[Kolokotronis]

"It was interesting -- while reading that I realized that this passage fit with my (new, beginning) understanding of the Orthodox mindset. So different from what seems like, by comparison, the legal mindset of the West."

I am very glad for this, sionnsar! That mindset, that phronema, and how it defines our lives, is how we have maintained Orthodox Christianity for 2100 years without the need of a Latin type system.

[Kolokotronis]

Remember..."I'll be standing on the bishop's shoulders!" :)

[AlbionGirl]

‘This fire will be kindled within a man: seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instantly. The very state of a man's soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left. ‘The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears “Come unto Me, ye blessed.” And conversely the same words will call the fire of horror and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime! ‘The Last Judgement knows of no witnesses or written protocols! Everything is inscribed in the souls of men and these records, these “books”, are opened at the Judgement. Everything becomes clear to all and to oneself. ‘And some will go to joy, while others — to horror. ‘When “the books are opened”, it will become clear that the roots of all vices lie in the human soul. Here is a drunkard or a lecher: when the body has died, some may think that sin is dead too. No! There was an inclination to sin in the soul, and that sin was sweet to the soul, and if the soul has not repented of the sin and has not freed itself from it, it will come to the Last Judgement also with the same desire for sin. It will never satisfy that desire and in that soul there will be the suffering of hatred. It will accuse everyone and everything in its tortured condition, it will hate everyone and everything. “There will be gnashing of teeth” of powerless malice and the unquenchable fire of hatred. ‘A “fiery gehenna” — such is the inner fire. “Here there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Such is the state of hell.’"

Right through to my marrow! Let's say you think you have repented, and that you are not committing the types of sin described here. But let's also say there are circumstances, such as age, which maybe part of the reason you've fallen away from the sin. No opportunity to sin, no sin.

What would be some indicators that you had or have fully repented? And, when it is said that 'in that soul there will be the sufffering of hatred', does that mean that whatever goodness was there, existing alongside the not so good, has been forever extinguished?

[Kolokotronis]

Don't be such a legalist! :)

My spiritual father said a few Sundays ago that its highly unlikely many of us will enter the kingdom of Heaven not smelling at least a bit of charred garment!