Posted on 02/24/2005 12:43:27 PM PST by NYer
Regarding that hor button word - obedience/disobedience..........its almost as if it were a signal word in brainwashing, if one considers the way people react to it.
They just want St. Stan's money to help balance the books from the costs of abuse lawsuits. Much of that money came from people outside the parish and religion who wished to preserve the building as part of their cultural heritage and architectural preservationists.
Get serious. It is the freely chosen disobedient actions of the board members which is preventing them from legitimately receiving the sacraments. They seem to be the ones who want to play this out in the press. They seem to be the ones who would be all to ready to bring in schismatic Priests. The wisdom of Archbishop Burke dealing with this sooner rather than later is most apparent.
He is not "attempting" to deny sacraments to anyone. He is trying to ensure that a local parish ethnic Church is situated properly within the Church universal. How can he be their shepherd otherwise? Where there is no Bishop, there is no Church!
What's wrong with a little anarchy here?
Maybe when the ethnic parishes start breaking away, and withhold their money and property from the Bishops, the Bishops might just get the message that they've lost all moral authority over the sex scandal.
If enough parishes do this, the Bishops may stop ordaining fags.
Gee, your blood's up on this one, isn't it?
I could use you at my table when the opposition proposes a settlement conference.
You could appear fierce and implacable, no quarter offered; and I could appear reasonable and restrained, barely able to hold you back, and we would get more than we expected to get.
I think it could work.
This is a false statement - he has kept no one from the Sacraments. The parishioners were requested to go to a different parish for Mass, etc., pending resolution of the issue.
It was the board members, alone, by their actions and scandalous behavior which necessitated the interdict.
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When a member of the Church has knowingly, deliberately and publicly damaged seriously the unity of the Church, his or her bishop has the pastoral responsibility to impose a sanction, in order to call the offending person to repentance and to restore the unity of the Church.
If Church authority were not to address a public violation of Church unity, then scandal would be caused by those who present themselves as devout Catholics, when, in fact, they are not in full communion with the Church.
In the case of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish, the offense committed by the members of the board of directors of the civil corporation of the parish is the public refusal to obey legitimate Church authority, namely the Holy Father’s Congregation for the Clergy and the archbishop of St. Louis, and the incitement of others to such disobedience. The applicable canons of the Code of Canon Law are canon 1371, paragraph 2, and canon 1373.
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Furthermore, today the Archbishop established a parish for those of Polish Heritage. It is a beautiful Church and one which will be not be in schism.
And your sources for this are?
Essentially you bled the supernatural virtue of faith with the Catholic Faith to support your contention. My last response to you requested a clarification. Evidently you realized that your foundation was collapsing and you never responded.
I am not into word games with folks from either end of the Catholic spectrum. Sometimes it seems that both sides use words and styles to confuse.
You have spoken what is on my mind - though I might have expressed it a little more diplomaticly!
You see, Northern European ethnic parishes are not wanted by the bishops. Why? Because they have - or could contain - educated white parishioners who know Canon & civil law, can and will complain about clerical sbues of all kinds. They also have $$$, which the Bishops greedily want......and which they know that these white ethnic parishioners are capable of withholding from the plate in protest.
The only "ethnic parishes" which they like - and love are ones composed of (illegal immigrant) Hispanics. They are uneducated - both in general and about the faith in particular. They do not know what orthodoxy truly is, adn thus do not complain much if at all. All the Bishop needs do is to politely "put up" with some of the exuberant excesses of their expressions of faith, and all is cool. The pews are filled, the money fills the coffers......and the people smile in ignorant bliss.
These folks do not complain about bad music & liturgical abuses (as they think that is the way things are done here in America). Sadly, if a Lutheran church hung out a sign which said: "Missa en Espanol, Domingo 11AM", they would go, and not know the difference - for the most part!
So while White Northen European ethnic parishes do not usually have the physical number which they used to have, they have actively noisy/vocal pew sitters with lots of $$$, who will fight vigorously for their rights. The Hispanics will not.
Guess which parishes are frequently the first ones slated for closing/merger, or have disruptive priests assigned as pastors? The white ethnic parishes.
"Where there is no Bishop, there is no Church!"
A very ignorant statement indeed - especially in light of the persecuted church behind the Iron Curtain, as well as in China, and other non-Christian areas. Many times due to government oppression there was no Bishop.......or he was jailed/killed.......or replaced with an apostate syncophant.
The church in those situations continued to exist, and even thrive - without a Bishop.
Burke had a Polish parish, but he chose to act in a disruptive matter to uneccesisaliy churn up what should have been left alone. There was no heresy or schism involved. He created this mess - where there was previously no problem. Simply to flex his muscles and show how much of a bully he could be.
His interdict is moot, as it has no sound basis. It is obvious to all that this is a result of his avarice over the assets of this parish.
His diocese is awash with sex abuse court cases, and he also has gay/apostate clergy to deal with. But rather then solve any real problems, or show positive spiritual leadership, he decides to go to war with these folks over property.
This is gross foolishness! Burke is at one with his ilk.....like Egan.
That's a good thing, since he's lost St. Stanislaus.
You mean the Catholic Catechism?
Put down your stones and open a book, preferably one before 1960.
I have been watching this situation since it first raised its head and know that the Board at St Stan's is quite the sly little group.
Thanks to all of you and a few others on this thread who have given us good first hand,reliable information and/or wise general observations. I myself would enjoy seeing some of these armchair observers from afar meet in St.Louis and attend one of the reverent polka masses,they so love and then go over to the social hall and talk it over,over drinks.
My thanks to some on this thread for good,honest comments was meant for you too. (Post #115.)
There are no games lady.
Read a book.
The rebel in me says nothing. The better part of me says there's no such thing as a 'little' anarchy.
Friend and foe alike seem to agree on the fact that the Law governing us Catholics is on the side of the Bishop. That no matter what any Bishop did before him, it does not bind this Bishop, which makes perfect sense to me.
Maybe when the ethnic parishes start breaking away, and withhold their money and property from the Bishops, the Bishops might just get the message that they've lost all moral authority over the sex scandal.
Moral authority has been squandered; squandered in the sense that many, Catholic and non-catholic alike roll their eyes when the heirarchy speaks of morality. That's a passing phase.
But the action these parishoners take is no kind of equalizer. They have no moral authority, at all. The church belongs to the Church. The blood, sweat and tears that went into funding and building St. Stanislaus is that of many more people than these people on the board.
May the Bishop prevail, and may many more Bishops follow this Bishop's lead and forbid the further dissection of the Church.
This kind of precedent cannot be set, in my opinion. I think it may be hoped for by people who think the Church should devolve into disparate chapels, one doing things her way, the other doing things another.
In the movie the exorcist when that hideous demon is finally cast out of Regan, he exits through the wall leaving the word confusion scrawled across it. So, again, may the Good Lord be with Bishop Burke, and may he aid him in prevailing here.
One of the three most wealthy municipalities in West St. Louis County. Not all that close to the city at all. People like Bob Costas live out there.
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