Posted on 02/08/2005 6:59:41 AM PST by xzins
070.000.000 Torrey: p32
070.010.000 Torrey: p32, T:I
Topic 10: The fact that God is omniscient.
070.010.010 Torrey: p32, T:I, P:1
POINT 10: God knows everything. He is perfect in knowledge. His understanding is infinite.
1 John 3:19-20 [19] This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence [20] whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
Job 37:16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
Psalms 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.
070.020.000 Torrey: p23, T:II
Topic 20: What God knows.
070.020.010 Torrey: p32, T:II, P:1
POINT 10: He sees all that occurs in every place and keeps watch upon the just and the wicked.
Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.
Ezekiel 8:12 He said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, 'The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.'"
070.020.020 Torrey: p32, T:II, P:2
POINT 20: God knows everything in nature, every star and every sparrow.
Psalms 147:4 He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name.
Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
070.020.030 Torrey: p33, T:II, P:3
POINT 30: He watches all mankind and considers each person's works. He sees the ways of men, and He examines all each man's goings.
Psalms 33:13-15 [13] From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; [14] from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth -- [15] he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.
Proverbs 5:21 For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
070.020.040 Torrey: p33, T:II, P:4
POINT 40: He knows all man's deeds and experiences.
Psalms 139:2-3 [2] You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. [3] You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
070.020.050 Torrey: p33, T:II, P:5
POINT 50: He knows all man's words.
Psalms 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.
070.020.060 Torrey: p33, T:II, P:6
POINT 60: He knows all man's sorrows.
Exodus 3:7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering."
It seems sometimes as if He does not know man's sorrows. It must have seemed so sometimes to Israel in Egypt, but He did, and in time He proved it.
070.020.070 Torrey: p33, T:II, P:7
POINT 70: He understands all our motives. He understands our thoughts from a distance.
Psalms 139:1-2 [1] O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. [2] You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
1 Chronicles 28:9 And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
070.020.080 Torrey: p33, T:II, P:8
POINT 80: God's knowledge extends to minutest particulars.
Matthew 10:29-30 [29] Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. [30] And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
070.020.090 Torrey: p34, T:II, P:9
POINT 90: God has always known everything that will ever happen.
Acts 15:16-18 [16] 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, [17] that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' [18] that have been known for ages.
Torrey's 1898 edition renders verse 18 as "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."
Isaiah 46:9-10 [9] Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. [10] I make known the end from the begin- ning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
070.020.100 Torrey: p34, T:II, P:10
POINT 100: God knows from the beginning what each individual man will do.
1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
Mark 13:32 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Matthew 20:17-19 [17] Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, [18] "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death [19] and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"
Exodus 3:19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.
Acts 3:17-18 [17] Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. [18] But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, say- ing that his Christ would suffer.
2 Kings 7:1-2 [1] Elisha said, "Hear the word of the LORD. This is what the LORD says: About this time tomorrow, a seah of flour will sell for a shekel and two seahs of barley for a shekel at the gate of Samaria." [2] The officer on whose arm the king was leaning said to the man of God, "Look, even if the LORD should open the floodgates of the heavens, could this happen?" "You will see it with your own eyes," answered Elisha, "but you will not eat any of it!"
Psalms 41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
Galatians 1:15-17 [15] But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased [16] to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, [17] nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
1 Peter 1:1-2 [1] ... To God's elect, ... [2] who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
070.020.110 Torrey: p35, T:II, P:11
POINT 110: The whole plan of the ages and each man's part in it has been known to God from all eternity.
Ephesians 1:9-12 [9] And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, [10] to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. [11] In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, [12] in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 3:6, 8-9 [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. ... [8] ... I am ... to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, [9] and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Colossians 1:25-26 [25] I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness -- [26] the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.
There are no afterthoughts with God. Well may we exclaim:
Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
The issue becomes what does God do with this knowledge? Does God simply know this information and sits by reacting to events or does God use this knowledge to direct the affairs of men? If He directs the affairs of men then to what extent does He impose His will over man's will?
BTTT
(Romans 10:17)
ping
It is only vanity that attempts to understand the Mind of God.
Shouldn't we use the Word He has given us in order to understand Him better?
There are scriptures in the above post, and, of course, others in the Bible, that indicate clearly that God uses His knowledge to affect the affairs of men.
There are certainly times when God imposes His will over human will.
Notice the order God gives: He knows the end from the beginning. Why does He state it that way? Maybe because He's making the point that nothing He's done or purposed has been contingent upon our actions.
Potato/potahto, half-empty/half-full. No Arminian says that God never interferes in the affairs of men or that He merely reacts to us. What we have always claimed is that His predestination of the elect is and has always been based on His foreknowledge rather than some divine whim.
Winston, you may have already read through all the passages sighted in this post, but maybe not, so I am sending a ping.
R.A. Torrey authored many books and the one I treasure is "The Power of Prayer". Does prayer change God's mind or does prayer change ours?
I am not sure what your point is in saying, "...nothing He's done or purposed has been contingent upon our actions." No one contends that God cannot do whatever He wishes in His good pleasure. That indeed is the focus of the larger passage from which you quoted:
"Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors. Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it."
All of this describes God's own resoluteness in pursuing and accomplishing those things which He has said He would do. He telling the transgressors not to doubt that He will do what He has said He will do just because the things which He has said "from ancient times things which have not been done."
While this proves that God's intentions as to His own acts are not dependent upon other contingencies, it does not prove that there are no contingencies.
A very apt question. What is your answer?
Mine is "Both, at different times." I think we would all agree that, through prayer, God can change our minds. But Scripture clearly and unequivocally tells us that prayer also changes God's mind. No problem with that, right? :-) Or, is He also to be numbered among the immobile "frozen chosen"?
First let me quote from R.A. Torrey because he says so beautifully what I believe: "to pray the prayer of faith we must first of all study our Bibles intensely that we may know the promises of God, what they are, how large they are, how definite they are, and just exactly what is promised. In addition to that we must live so near to God, be so fully surrendered to the will of God, have such a delight in God and so feel our utter dependence upon the Spirit of God, that the Holy Spirit Himself can guide us in our prayers and indicate clearly to us what the will of God is, and make us sure while we pray that we have asked for something that is according to God's will, and thus enable us to pray with the absolute confidence that God has heard our prayer, and that "we have received" the things that we asked of Him."
I think that my will must conform to His, that I must trust in His promises, that I must believe that He is good and means good for me, then my prayers will prepare me for whatever comes my way.
PS, being created in God's image does not make one frozen, but rather passionate 8)
Your short answer: God changes your mind, but never ever changes His own. Right?
Now I realize the determinist model precludes one from understanding that God changes His mind (although Scripture clearly says He does). But what does that position leave for petitionary prayer? Apart from the meeting of some ceremonial requirement (i.e. one doing something meaningless because one feels one is instructed to perform such a meaningless act), what purpose is served in asking for anything (particularly for others) in sincere prayer to God?
Isn't it true that the determinist model leaves no real expectation of an answer to petitionary prayer for others? Again, then, apart from the meeting of a ceremonial requirement (defined above), why would any good determinist pray for others?
One doesn't need a fog of purple prose from Torrey or anyone else. What possible purpose is served? If none, why would the apostles suggest it?
We are all created in the image of God and, I suppose, that all humans are 'passionate' to some degree about something.
Obviously, the "frozen chosen" reference is the traditional reference to those determinists convinced that they are unalterably destined for Heaven no matter what they do or think in response to Christ and that others, far less fortunate than they, are similarly unalterably destined for Hell no matter what they do or think in response to Christ. Those fortunate, self-designated "chosen" are, in that sense, "frozen" in status (according to their lights). Just a small attempt at humor.
No, that is not true, there is expectation that leads to praise when God's will is carried out.
what purpose is served in asking for anything (particularly for others) in sincere prayer to God? What possible purpose is served?
It gives God the glory due to Him.
If none, why would the apostles suggest it?
It is more than a suggestion, it is commanded.
What if you were petitioning for "Mr. M" and I was petitioning just the opposite for "Mr. M" in my prayers, in your model does God flip a coin?
SJ: No, that is not true, there is expectation that leads to praise when God's will is carried out.
WC: What purpose is served in asking for anything (particularly for others) in sincere prayer to God? What possible purpose is served?
SJ: It gives God the glory due to Him.
_______________
Now I have only been a lawyer for 36 years now, so I've still got room to learn, but what in Heaven's name does "...expectation that leads to praise ..." mean, if anything at all? And why does praying petitionary prayers for others to a (determinist-presupposed) impassive and unchanging God "...give[] God the glory due to Him?"
Let's make this make this concrete. A friend's 10-year-old son has inoperable brain tumors. They (father and mother) are not Christians in a Biblical sense; they were raised in the RCC. But they are, as you might expect frantic. [The mother took the little boy to some RCC holy man in the jungles of the Amazon, who examined his "auras."] I am frantic too. This man, a physician, was particularly kind to my wife when she was dying. I know the little boy.
Now, I am not the greatest prayer warrior, but I have prayed repeatedly for this boy. I know one thing. If he is to be healed, only God can do it. He is literally dying before our eyes. And it will get pretty bad before it ends, if it is to end in death.
Now, please explain in words simple enough for me to understand, what does it mean to say that when I pray to God for this little boy,"...there is expectation that leads to praise" from a determinist perspective? The only "expectation" I have is that Scripture tells me that, even if God has heretofore decided that this little boy should die, He might change His mind and heal him in response to prayer (from me and others). If I thought for one minute that whatever God had decided was fixed and that He was incapable of changing it, I am still rational enough (even at my advancing age) that I would know better than to pray for something beyond His power.
If my desk is either mahogany or pine (but I don't know which), I am rational enough not to pray that God will make it one or the other now.
Neither God's will nor this little boy are like my inanimate, impassive desk. So I pray. And I cry. And I pray some more.
Now the standard determinist response (assuming God is as wooden as my desk) is that, since I don't know whether my desk is mahogany or pine, I should pray that it is mahogany, with the 'expectation' that it might be and then when its composition is later disclosed, maybe I thank (the determinist) God that I guessed the right answer in my prayer (if it turns out to have been mahogany). But one thing is for sure, the determinist God didn't change the desk; I just guessed right. How this is supposed to "...give[] God the glory due to Him" is beyond me. If He made my inanimate desk out of pine, where's the 'glory' in that? If He made it out of mahogany, no more 'glory' there.
The real 'glory' and the real 'expectation of praise' is that the God of Scripture (determinist presuppostions to the contrary notwithstanding), not only listens to our prayers, He sometimes acts on them. He is not impassive and wooden, like my desk.
Now what about the straw man you throw up about Mr. M. ["What if you were petitioning for "Mr. M" and I was petitioning just the opposite for "Mr. M" in my prayers, in your model does God flip a coin?"] The implication is that, if God were to have the power to change His Mind, then God must somehow be bound to answer my prayer (or yours) in the manner we respectively suggest. That is not true; it does not follow. Just because He can and sometimes does change the previously intended result, does not mean that He must do so. [And, BTW, God never, ever, ever acts arbitrarily (such as in flipping a coin) that's why the occupants of Heaven and Hell were not determined arbitrarily by some 'secret counsel' or some 'divine paradox' before the foundation of the world.]
But, just as much to Jonah's chagrin, when the pagan people of Niniveh prayed sincerely to God, He did in fact changed His mind. I know that -- no speculation on my part -- because the Bible tells me so.
When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" And they said, "He is dead."
So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food."
And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, "Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?" But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
"expectation that leads to praise" is praying in earnest for what I want to the only one who has control over the situation and then waiting/watching to see what He wants followed by worship (praise) when what He wants is lived out. This is giving God the glory for what He has done. That is what David did.
When you pray for this family, do you pray for their souls? Will these parents be able to look forward to seeing their son in heaven? Are they prepared for any other answer than healing?
What about you, So I pray. And I cry. And I pray some more.? Are you prepared? How will you feel about God if He doesn't change His mind?
About the straw man, "Mr. M", let me make that scenario concrete. My father died a few years ago from kidney failure. He had many years of suffering from strokes prior to this final blow. Just before he died, I prayed that God would take my father and end his suffering, because I wanted my father to be in heaven and not suffer any longer. The rest of my family, at the same time, were praying for God to heal him. My prayer was answered 'yes' - not because I guessed right, but because the Holy Spirit led me in my prayer, preparing me for what was to follow. My father is with God and I give thanks to Him (glory due Him) that even though I miss my father, he is far better off.
I pray, as David did because I don't know the answers but my wise and powerful God who knows all things and I can trust Him to do what is right.
The account of David's son from 2 Samuel is apt indeed, but not for the reasons you seem to suggest.
Your summary statement quoted above is certainly true, but it ignores the central question of petitionary prayer for others if one accepts the determinist model. The determinist must assume that David was a fool to pray to God in the first instance since the death (or life) of his son was (in the determinist presupposition) entirely foreordained and, as you underline in your quote, in this unusual instance, Scripture tells us that "the Lord struck the child ..." [It is unclear from the account whether David knew that, in this instance, it was the Lord who had struck the child. However, in view of David's prior conduct, I think he must have had at least a suspicion.]
David was clearly no determinist, for a good believer in the determinist model would 'know' that God was incapable of changing His mind and thus to pray as diligently as David did would be foolish indeed. But David knew more Scripture and knew that it was possible that God would relent, as He did with Hezekiah and with Niniveh. The fact that He didn't change His mind here doesn't change the fact that David's actions show that he knew that God could and sometimes did do it.
So, for purposes of our discussion here of the determinist model's adverse effect on petitionary prayer, the important point is that David knew that it was possible that God could change His mind.
As to your comments on your father's illness and the conflict in family prayers, I am sure you realize that this is not unusual. The example usually given is that of WWI when there were Christian nations on both sides or our own Civil War with a similar situation. God, however, is all wise and as you suggest can be trusted to sort those things out.
The critical point not to miss, however, is that God is active in human affairs and is responding to those prayers. While as Garth Brooks said in his famous song "Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers," to take that and convert it, as the determinist must, to a universal that God never answers prayer or never changes His mind is illogical and, worse, unscriptural. Don't you agree?
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