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To: pascendi
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was defined and declared in the 1800's, but to be sure, unlike the matter at hand here, it was uniquely different in that it really could be shown to be the always-known and well accepted dogma of the Church, particularly in the East.

The Immaculate Conception wasn't a dogma until Ineffabilis Deus. Bl. Pius IX convened over 400 bishops in Rome to debate the issue before defining the matter - but he knew well that a dogma could never be a legitimate subject of debate.

But see? They're all over the place, the whole lot of them. This in and of itself should be more than enough evidence that, hey, we aren't dealing with a doctrine here, but theological speculations concerning difficult situations we don't understand.

You could make the same appeal about, say, the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin, which was denied by many of the Fathers. But we know that that doctrine is part of the Deposit of Faith, and we have the testimony of Augustine and others to prove it.

Again, we have other saints and long-since dead theologians denying it.

What theologians, after Florence, denied baptism of desire? What theologians after Trent did not interpret, as St. Alphonsus Ligouri did, the Decree on Justification as supporting baptism of desire in Chapter IV?

But see the bolded part? That's not doctrine. He's saying this, yes, and it sounds cool, but the Church simply hasn't defined that.

The Church has decided that there are individuals inside the Church, although they are not members. Even prescinding from the Decree on Justification, there is the letter of the Holy Office, Lumen Gentium, the letters of Innocent II and Innocent III, the Roman Catechism... St. Pius X (Praestantia Scripturae) and Bl. Pius IX (Tuas libenter) both condemned the opinion that it is only necessary to believe infallibly defined doctrines.

This is sheer speculation. This is not doctrine. But look at this, though, in comparison to the above speculation:

Trent teaches that the Sacrament of Penance can be received by desire and so justify. If your interpretation of the canon was correct, it would have contradicted itself.

46 posted on 01/27/2005 5:22:56 AM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: gbcdoj; pascendi
I found today's first reading and this commentary (mentions Vatican I) appropriate for this thread. What do you think?

Reading I
Heb 10:19-25
22-25:
Let us hold unwaveringly to our confession that gives us hope,
for he who made the promise is trustworthy.
We must consider how to rouse one another to love and good works.
We should not stay away from our assembly,
as is the custom of some, but encourage one another,
and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.


22-25. The epistle now exhorts its readers to purity of heart,
steadfastness in faith and mutual charity.

It speaks of a clean heart, recalling the purity which the water of
Baptism brings. The Christian should stay true to the faith he received
and professed at Baptism, and maintain the purity which it brings. To
live in this way the baptized should count on the help provided by the
Church and on the grace God continually gives. As Vatican I teaches,
referring to those who have received the light of faith, "God does not
abandon them, unless he is abandoned [...]. Therefore, the position of
those who have embraced Catholic truth by the heavenly gift of faith,
and of those who have been misled by human opinions and follow a false
religion is by no means the same, for the former, who have accepted the
faith under the teaching authority of the Church, can never have just
reason for changing that faith or calling it into question" ("Dei
Filius", chap. 3).

49 posted on 01/27/2005 8:26:27 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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