Submission to authority / God. (Vanity)

Rodney King ^ | today | Rodney King

[Rodney King]

OK. I am 31 years old. I became a Christian at 26. I received absolutley no religious instruction from my parents as a kid. Once I was an adult, I sought Christ, but was misled as I went to the prominent Christian church in town. It was an Episcopalian Church where all the prominent citizens went. Anyway, being a critical thinker, it was obvious that God wasn't being taught there. I did not really know what God was, but it was obivous that nobody else there did either, so I thought the whole thing was a scam.

I came to Christ as a result of meeting a guy in a bar. After a softball game, my team went to a bar where I met a fellow from Texas who was new to the area. He wanted to play ball, and we needed another guy. He was a good Christian. He related how when he and his wife moved to my town (in CT) his wife called all the churches and basically had a quiz about their beliefs that she wanted them to answer. It was pretty basic stuff (is there more than one path to heaven, etc.). Anyway, only one minister passed the test.

He had been an episcopalian priest in the Boston area who was driven out because he would not say that homosexuality was ok. He had a patron in my town who set him up in a small church. There were 50-100 regular members. They have since become members of the Presbyterian Church of America. (not the liberal PC-USA).

My new friend set me up with this pastor, and we had a few meetings in his office and over lunch.

He correctly diagnosed my problem:

I am resistant to authority, and had trouble submitting to Christ's will.

With this recognition of my major problem, I came around and submitted to the will of God. I have been blessed by the Lord endlessly since.

Having not been widely exposed to many forms of Christianity, I have always had an open mind about other denominations.

As a kid in CT, most of my friends were Catholic. I always thought it was a fraud because they did sunday school and confirmation, but clearly didn't beleive in God anymore than the phony wasps at the Epsicopalian church.

A little bit later, I made two good friends who were very much Catholic (one is a Freeper). The equivalent of an "Evangelical Catholic" if there is such a thing.

All along, I have of course had problems with the Catholic sex scandals, as well as the liberal cardinals, etc.

I have since moved to Oklahoma. In the last few months, I have been watching EWTN frequently. I am drawn by two clear things:

1. The beauty and majesty of the masses, that appear to me to be such pure expressions of faith, and

2. The level of strict beleif on the newtork, from the unyielding belief in the teachings, to the activism as represented from Father Frank Pavones' show, and the willingness of the Priests in the daily mass to address issues such as abortion and euthanasia.

So, where does that leave me?

I have questions about the faith, and questions about authority.

First, about the faith:

Does Catholicism teach that priests are middlemen? I.E. do I really need a Priest to make me right and forgive my sins? Must I confess to a priest, and not just directly to God?

Does the beauty of the mass, and the worhsip of Mary and the Saint amount to idolatry?

Most importantly is the submission to authority. Submitting to authority is the biggest problem in my life. It was a problem with my parents, it has been a problem with my jobs (witness my day time freeping), and it was a problem with Christ. I have overcome it with Christ (although still struggle with it) and have made good progess with parents, bosses, etc.

Does a Catholic submit to an authority other than God? While I admire and trust the men I watch on EWTN, it only takes a few minutes of FReeping to be reminded of limp-wristed catholics. Or, to be more generous, by accepting the authority of the church, am I accepting the authority of the MEN who run the church?

In protestantism, one can walk away from a pastor with unsound teachings. However, how does one do this in Catholicism? What does one think when a Vatican offical utters something stupid (like criticizing Israel for not giving aid, when in reality Israel offered the aid and Sri Lanka rejected it)? Or, when local bishops have been complicit in covering up sex scandals and transferring priests to inflict their harm elsewhere?

I would be very grateful for any advice. My wife is on my case about my watching EWTN all the time, and of course this is very meanginful to me personally.

PS:

Who runs EWTN? It seems to be such a better expression of the faith than that presented by big city parishes.

Thanks again.

[Pukin Dog]

I don't understand your last post to me at all. Please explain.

[broadsword]

"Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you will have no life in you" --Jesus
"And my body is real food, and my blood is real drink" --Jesus

"This sort of talk is hard to take! How can this man give us his body to eat and his blood to drink?" --those who walked away from him.

Do those who do not eat His precious body and blood have life in them? Hmmm... What did Jesus say about that? I know I could not come up with a difinitife case-by-case answer for that. Jesus is infinitely loving and infinitely just and infinitely merciful. That throws a wrench into the works that is infinitely too much for me to figure out, but He said we would have no life in us if we did not partake of that holy sacrifice and meal of REAL food and drink. You decide what to do about that, my friend.

[kstewskis]

However, in Catholicism, it seems, or at least the argument is made by some, that one is essentially putting faith in the men of the church. This is what is holding me back from what I feel drawn to.

With good reason, and I say that as a Catholic.

It was a Pentacostal, who once told me long ago, to beware of "man made" things, and to keep your faith in God.

Your journey in faith will take some time, and it will continue to grow. From what I'm reading, you're on your way. Just let the Holy Ghost lead you by the hand, and never let go. You'll be fine.

[broadsword]

I think she was talking to me about the way I was trying to illustrate my answer to you.

I hope you didn't take offense anyway.

None was meant.

[Askel5]

=== I have since moved to Oklahoma

You're closer to God already, guy!


As a former Okie, I can attest to the fact that anti-Catholic bigotry's pretty standard stuff ... particularly outside Tulsa and OKC.

If you wish to FReepmail me, I'd give you my personal recommendations on some good priests and parishes. If you're in Tulsa, there's even a regular Sunday Latin Mass (over on the northside) where I ran into one of my former Bishop Kelley classmates and his young daughter. Very heartening. Made me wish for a moment I'd stayed back home.

[Rodney King]

And it looks like you have a lot of good reading recommendations, so the only thing I'm going to suggest is getting a hold of a CD by Rosalind Moss. This CD which was part of a Lenten Conference might be available through EWTN. I have it, and would be willing to mail it to you at a P.O. box or whatever, if you'd like it and can't find it. The title of the CD is "From Judaism to the Fullness of Christ." Another book, and I'm sorry, I don't remember the author's name, "Salvation is from the Jews" will also give you an immeasureable amount of knowledge and will nourish and succor your fledgling Faith.

I'll look them up, thanks.

[broadsword]

If you're in Tulsa, there's even a regular Sunday Latin Mass

Hey! Hey! Now there's the ticket, if you ask me!

[Rodney King]

Jesus is all you need. Don't let anyone place their teachings, or any intermediary, between you and Christ.

Thanks, I guess I am trying to figure out if the RC church is an intermediary, or a helping hand.

[Rodney King]

All I would question is why you feel the need to measure the time it takes? I fear that you have some set template in your mind for how all this is supposed to occur in your life. It is a form of control. Are you a control freak? If so, what is it that you are afraid of?

I understand your question, and I'm not a control freak. It's hard to explain.. but I know I need God's help, yet I refuse to ask for it, and I spend days lost, stressed, etc. And sure enough, when I ask for God's help, my problems are resolved.

[Rodney King]

Thanks for your suggestions, God Bless You, too.

[Askel5]

I think it's most unfortunate the Moderators here have seen fit to use an image of some "conservo-babe" with her pants hanging Britney Spears style such that it reappears on your post.

Typical "mixed message" one can expect from a GOP site, I guess.


Anyway ... about EWTN.

I'm sure others have filled you in on Mother Angelica and trads may even have warned you away from some of the questionable content. But though I've always been impressed for the most part by the programming -- Raymond Arroyo is a fellow parishioner here at St. Patrick's in New Orleans -- I was most impressed when I visited the monastery Mother Angelica built in Hanceville.

Stopping en route home from Maryland, I spent an afternoon there in adoration. I'd hoped to make it in time for Mass but it's a little difficult to find and I was in time only to meet some of those families who clearly make their Sunday obligation at the monastery.

Amazing place, Rodney. Now that I'm on their mailing list, it's really a treat to witness how joyful are the lives of those young women who've joined the convent or entered the cloister. Beautiful women whose faces are full of life and light. (As reflected, I'm sure, on the face of any human being who spends that much time before the Real Presence.)

And it's heartening to see how happy Mother Angelica looks. For one so close to death and regardless what limitations she may now have, it's neat to keep tabs on how busy and happy her life still is.

[Pukin Dog]

None taken.

[Rodney King]

Thanks!

[Rodney King]

If you're in Tulsa, there's even a regular Sunday Latin Mass

something I would like to experience, but I need to bone up on my Latin.

[Pukin Dog]

I know I need God's help, yet I refuse to ask for it, and I spend days lost, stressed, etc.

Excuse me, while I revert to form for a moment. When guys that I trained used to tell me that they knew they were screwing up, knew how to fix it, but could not manage to do so, my last question to them before I washed them out was:

Are you sure that you are not just a dummy?

No offense meant, but you get my point, right? This is a DECISION. Choose right.

[Askel5]

If you don't mind one other strictly personal observation ...

This year, largely thanks to a marathon phone conversation with a Jewish friend of my in Manhattan that took me through New Year's on the East Coast and here in Central Time ... I'm giving a lot of thought to the difference between capitulation and true surrender.

For the past five years or so, the Catholic FReepers really helped whip me into shape. I was a "They Will Know we are Christians By Our Love" sorta hoe-down Vatican II Catholic who knew nothing about my faith, really. Our Confirmation classes dwelt on sex and poverty. We painted houses for several weekends but spent only about 20 minutes on the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

(The radical revolution within the Church makes that outside the Church look like child's play ... truly. Keep this in mind as you adventure further.)

Anyway ... so it was with much emotion that the true extent of the inheritance withheld from me all my life (save for the osmosis of my trad family) hit me. Between folks here and my beloved late Monsignor, my erudite and traditional grandparents ... I was thoroughly engulfed.

But I think I mistook some of that initial excitement and wonder and awe for true surrender when it was only mental capitulation. (Exciting enough ... especially for those of us who tend to live in our heads as a rule ... )

BUT ... there must be a balance here for although Christ is the most tremendous lover of all, the relationship cannot be strictly that emotive charismatic sort of "high" just as it tends to grow rigid when approached in an exclusively analytical fashion.

I think, should you decide to actually investigate the Church and perhaps one day join us, you will find that balance in the Eucharist.


This is the Year of the Eucharist. In a way, I find it most appropriate I should have awoken this morning still wondering how, exactly, I shall fully Surrender, instead of merely Capitulating, to Christ.

We shall see.

Take care, Rodney.

[broadsword]

Just learn what the awesome mystery of the Mass is, my friend. Remember that the priest is not the one who performs the miracle of consecration, it is Jesus, our one true high priest, acting THROUGH him. The more you learn what is happening, the more the majesty and outrageous love of God will sweep you off your feet. That you understand every word is not essential. We are too small to understand the mystery of God's love and plan for our salvation anyway.

Remember that the infinite cannot be grasped by the finite. That's why we have to do it HIS way and trust Him in child-like faith.

[kstewskis]

something I would like to experience, but I need to bone up on my Latin

There are Latin-English missals available, that make it really easy to follow.

I didn't have a clue about Latin 7-8 months ago. After regularly attending the Traditional (Tridentine) Latin Mass over the last 7 months, I can usually follow along pretty easily.

BTW, it is here that you actually praying the mass. The entire mass is a prayer, and total devotion to God. My own faith has grown exponentially by participating in it, because it is nourished by God alone, not by man made improptu's during some Novus Ordo masses (or other services) you might come across in some parishes.

I find myself falling in love with Chirst over and over again each week. I wish for you the same!

[onedoug]

It couldn't hurt to spend a little time in synagogue. Good training.