Submission to authority / God. (Vanity)

Rodney King ^ | today | Rodney King

[Rodney King]

OK. I am 31 years old. I became a Christian at 26. I received absolutley no religious instruction from my parents as a kid. Once I was an adult, I sought Christ, but was misled as I went to the prominent Christian church in town. It was an Episcopalian Church where all the prominent citizens went. Anyway, being a critical thinker, it was obvious that God wasn't being taught there. I did not really know what God was, but it was obivous that nobody else there did either, so I thought the whole thing was a scam.

I came to Christ as a result of meeting a guy in a bar. After a softball game, my team went to a bar where I met a fellow from Texas who was new to the area. He wanted to play ball, and we needed another guy. He was a good Christian. He related how when he and his wife moved to my town (in CT) his wife called all the churches and basically had a quiz about their beliefs that she wanted them to answer. It was pretty basic stuff (is there more than one path to heaven, etc.). Anyway, only one minister passed the test.

He had been an episcopalian priest in the Boston area who was driven out because he would not say that homosexuality was ok. He had a patron in my town who set him up in a small church. There were 50-100 regular members. They have since become members of the Presbyterian Church of America. (not the liberal PC-USA).

My new friend set me up with this pastor, and we had a few meetings in his office and over lunch.

He correctly diagnosed my problem:

I am resistant to authority, and had trouble submitting to Christ's will.

With this recognition of my major problem, I came around and submitted to the will of God. I have been blessed by the Lord endlessly since.

Having not been widely exposed to many forms of Christianity, I have always had an open mind about other denominations.

As a kid in CT, most of my friends were Catholic. I always thought it was a fraud because they did sunday school and confirmation, but clearly didn't beleive in God anymore than the phony wasps at the Epsicopalian church.

A little bit later, I made two good friends who were very much Catholic (one is a Freeper). The equivalent of an "Evangelical Catholic" if there is such a thing.

All along, I have of course had problems with the Catholic sex scandals, as well as the liberal cardinals, etc.

I have since moved to Oklahoma. In the last few months, I have been watching EWTN frequently. I am drawn by two clear things:

1. The beauty and majesty of the masses, that appear to me to be such pure expressions of faith, and

2. The level of strict beleif on the newtork, from the unyielding belief in the teachings, to the activism as represented from Father Frank Pavones' show, and the willingness of the Priests in the daily mass to address issues such as abortion and euthanasia.

So, where does that leave me?

I have questions about the faith, and questions about authority.

First, about the faith:

Does Catholicism teach that priests are middlemen? I.E. do I really need a Priest to make me right and forgive my sins? Must I confess to a priest, and not just directly to God?

Does the beauty of the mass, and the worhsip of Mary and the Saint amount to idolatry?

Most importantly is the submission to authority. Submitting to authority is the biggest problem in my life. It was a problem with my parents, it has been a problem with my jobs (witness my day time freeping), and it was a problem with Christ. I have overcome it with Christ (although still struggle with it) and have made good progess with parents, bosses, etc.

Does a Catholic submit to an authority other than God? While I admire and trust the men I watch on EWTN, it only takes a few minutes of FReeping to be reminded of limp-wristed catholics. Or, to be more generous, by accepting the authority of the church, am I accepting the authority of the MEN who run the church?

In protestantism, one can walk away from a pastor with unsound teachings. However, how does one do this in Catholicism? What does one think when a Vatican offical utters something stupid (like criticizing Israel for not giving aid, when in reality Israel offered the aid and Sri Lanka rejected it)? Or, when local bishops have been complicit in covering up sex scandals and transferring priests to inflict their harm elsewhere?

I would be very grateful for any advice. My wife is on my case about my watching EWTN all the time, and of course this is very meanginful to me personally.

PS:

Who runs EWTN? It seems to be such a better expression of the faith than that presented by big city parishes.

Thanks again.

[My2Cents]

So, you basically call me a heretic, a liar, and a nut...and YOU accuse ME of a poor Christian witness?

[Rodney King]

What is EWTN anyway???

Eternal Word Television Network.

[Rodney King]

Also, for any questions that FReepers can't answer, try Catholic 101!

Thanks, will do.

[broadsword]

OK. One last laugh at you:

True believers in the Bible and in Christ were done with you and your kind back around 1522.

Why did the NT of the Bible not exist for Christians (Catholics, since that is all there was) until Pope St. Damasus gathered the Catholic Church's writings up and declared some of them to be the Word of God in the 300s?

And, why did it take Jesus Christ one-thousand-five-hundred years to finally get it together and establish his undefined-anything-goes-make-it-up-as-YOU-go-along-Church?

LOL!

[Rodney King]

You have to first decide whether or not you believe the word of God to be perfect. If you do; recognizing at the same time that you are NOT perfect, it becomes easy. The question wont be about authority, it will be whether or not you believe the words in your Bible or not. When you really believe it, you wont have this problem. I know for a fact that I am the least perfect person living, but I believe in the word, and pray for forgiveness.

Thanks. I believe the Word, without question. Of course, sometimes I am unsure of what the Word is in certain circumstances. However, I definetly know that when I know I need to pray, yet don't, it's the same sort of reaction that I have when a teacher/boss/parent tells/told me to do something that I know/knew was right, yet still didn't do it.

[Rodney King]

I never heard of EWTN. Is that a tv channel? What does it stand for?

Sorry, I should have been clear, it is Eternal Word Television Network.

[Rodney King]

The only confession that means remission of sins is the confession to Christ of your sins. However, the Bible also mentions that we should confess our sins to each other. This, I believe, is to strengthen us and to provide a means of accountability in our lives. If other people know what we are confessing, then we would be less likely to fall for that temptation again. I believe that this teaching is the basis for confessing to priests, but (not being a Catholic), I cannot state that for certain. On the other issues, being a Christian means being in a relationship with Christ. That relationship is personal and should not be relegated to Sunday morning formal church services. It should be a 24 hour, 7 day/week relationship--even closer than the relationship you have with your wife. Being this kind a relationship, a pastor (of whatever name or title) should be there for guidance and advice--not forgiveness of sins. Does that help?

All comments help, thanks. Certainly it helps to confess to another i.e. a priest, but I am not sure if that is about confessing to another, or if it is about Jesus having conferred to Peter, having conferred on down the line the power to forgive sins. I definetly beleive in a 24/7 relationship with Christ. What turned me off of Cahtolicism as a kid was that the catholics I knew just went through the motions. However what I have been exposed to lately is something that I would call Evangelical Catholicism, if that means anything.

[Rodney King]

For what it's worth, I've never read or heard a systematic theology that was completely correct. And some systematic theology is at the root of every denomination. The point is, then, there is no one "correct" or "right" church. There is the church universal...the complete body of Christ on earth, made up of all who belong to Him, those whom He has called and whom have responded to His call. Christ is the head of that church...not the pope, not the pastor, not the head of president of the denomination.

I agree, and while I believe 100% that the Word is the Word i.e. the only path to the father is thru the son, I am tolerant of certain divergent views among the different branches. However, in Catholicism, it seems, or at least the argument is made by some, that one is essentially putting faith in the men of the church. This is what is holding me back from what I feel drawn to.

[Rodney King]

May I suggest this article by Scott Hahn, former Presbyterian to explain the biblical basis of your doubt...

Thanks again, you have been most helpful.

[Rodney King]

You're blessed to have discovered this yourself.

Thanks, God Bless You.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I need some time to think about your post.

In the meantime, I recommend Fr. John Corapi. You've probably seen him on EWTN. He is very solid as far as Novus Ordo priests go. I prefer the traditional approach to Catholicism but I like listening to Fr. Corapi. He is good, especially since he was a big time sinner in southern CA before his conversion. He tends to be someone to whom people can relate. A friend of mine is considering a conversion due to watching him on EWTN. http://www.fathercorapi.com/

Let me ping some others who may be of help.

[Rodney King]

What is finite cannot grasp the infinite but the infinite can easily grasp the finite. Religion is man's connection to the infinite. Since man (the finite creature) cannot grasp the infinite (God), he does not have the ability to connect to the infinite. Therefore, religion must come from the Infinite God and not from man's finite and faulty design. It must come from God. That's why Jesus Christ came down and established His Church on the rock of Peter, which He promised the jaws of hell would not prevail against it.

Thank you.

[Rodney King]

Beauty can be deceptive, even in wonderful church services. The New Testament commands are what matter (as opposed to OT law.) When it comes to salvation, we find the command in 1 John 3:23. When it comes to morality, we find the command in 1 Thess 4:1-8. When it comes to the church service, we find a command in 1 Cor 14:26-37.

Thanks for your post.

[Rodney King]

So again, thanks for bringing this up

You're welcome!.

[broadsword]

However, in Catholicism, it seems, or at least the argument is made by some, that one is essentially putting faith in the men of the church.

But it is NOT as it SEEMS to you, brother. In EVERY faith, there will be human failures, to some degree. Satan wants us to look at those human failures and leave faith behind, but do not walk away from Peter because of Judas. Do not walk away from Jesus because His words are "hard to take", as so many did when He instituted the Holy Eucharist... as so many do today because they want to have it THEIR way and follow a Jesus they can stand.

[Pukin Dog]

When you need to pray? How is this decided? You should pray when you want to, or YOU feel the need to. Stop judging yourself. There is no right or wrong way to pray. When you NEED to pray, you will do so with ease, trust me. Just read your Bible and relax. Learn the word and try to live by Jesus' example. I fail at this everyday, but I still try. Remember that we each have a PERSONAL relationship with God, and it is and will be what you make of it. Don't let anyone tell you how to come to the Lord.

[marmar]

Study to show yourself approved...rightly dividing the word of God. Judge not lest you be judged. broadsword, I understand your defense of your faith...but only Jesus knows the heart. If you truly wield a sword, make sure you do it in honer of the Lord.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Rodney, I'll just go ahead and ping my entire list. There are some very intelligent people on it.

Can anyone provide some advice or resources for Rodney's inquiries about Catholicism?

[longrider]

The only thing you need, is the king james Bible and a book call dark light, by Steward Best. If I could have only two books to read for the rest of my life, these are the two.

[Rodney King]

Full details concerning the lives and works of each of the popes can be found at:

Thanks a bunch, will read later tonight.