Posted on 01/01/2005 3:35:56 PM PST by Rodney King
OK. I am 31 years old. I became a Christian at 26. I received absolutley no religious instruction from my parents as a kid. Once I was an adult, I sought Christ, but was misled as I went to the prominent Christian church in town. It was an Episcopalian Church where all the prominent citizens went. Anyway, being a critical thinker, it was obvious that God wasn't being taught there. I did not really know what God was, but it was obivous that nobody else there did either, so I thought the whole thing was a scam.
I came to Christ as a result of meeting a guy in a bar. After a softball game, my team went to a bar where I met a fellow from Texas who was new to the area. He wanted to play ball, and we needed another guy. He was a good Christian. He related how when he and his wife moved to my town (in CT) his wife called all the churches and basically had a quiz about their beliefs that she wanted them to answer. It was pretty basic stuff (is there more than one path to heaven, etc.). Anyway, only one minister passed the test.
He had been an episcopalian priest in the Boston area who was driven out because he would not say that homosexuality was ok. He had a patron in my town who set him up in a small church. There were 50-100 regular members. They have since become members of the Presbyterian Church of America. (not the liberal PC-USA).
My new friend set me up with this pastor, and we had a few meetings in his office and over lunch.
He correctly diagnosed my problem:
I am resistant to authority, and had trouble submitting to Christ's will.
With this recognition of my major problem, I came around and submitted to the will of God. I have been blessed by the Lord endlessly since.
Having not been widely exposed to many forms of Christianity, I have always had an open mind about other denominations.
As a kid in CT, most of my friends were Catholic. I always thought it was a fraud because they did sunday school and confirmation, but clearly didn't beleive in God anymore than the phony wasps at the Epsicopalian church.
A little bit later, I made two good friends who were very much Catholic (one is a Freeper). The equivalent of an "Evangelical Catholic" if there is such a thing.
All along, I have of course had problems with the Catholic sex scandals, as well as the liberal cardinals, etc.
I have since moved to Oklahoma. In the last few months, I have been watching EWTN frequently. I am drawn by two clear things:
1. The beauty and majesty of the masses, that appear to me to be such pure expressions of faith, and
2. The level of strict beleif on the newtork, from the unyielding belief in the teachings, to the activism as represented from Father Frank Pavones' show, and the willingness of the Priests in the daily mass to address issues such as abortion and euthanasia.
So, where does that leave me?
I have questions about the faith, and questions about authority.
First, about the faith:
Does Catholicism teach that priests are middlemen? I.E. do I really need a Priest to make me right and forgive my sins? Must I confess to a priest, and not just directly to God?
Does the beauty of the mass, and the worhsip of Mary and the Saint amount to idolatry?
Most importantly is the submission to authority. Submitting to authority is the biggest problem in my life. It was a problem with my parents, it has been a problem with my jobs (witness my day time freeping), and it was a problem with Christ. I have overcome it with Christ (although still struggle with it) and have made good progess with parents, bosses, etc.
Does a Catholic submit to an authority other than God? While I admire and trust the men I watch on EWTN, it only takes a few minutes of FReeping to be reminded of limp-wristed catholics. Or, to be more generous, by accepting the authority of the church, am I accepting the authority of the MEN who run the church?
In protestantism, one can walk away from a pastor with unsound teachings. However, how does one do this in Catholicism? What does one think when a Vatican offical utters something stupid (like criticizing Israel for not giving aid, when in reality Israel offered the aid and Sri Lanka rejected it)? Or, when local bishops have been complicit in covering up sex scandals and transferring priests to inflict their harm elsewhere?
I would be very grateful for any advice. My wife is on my case about my watching EWTN all the time, and of course this is very meanginful to me personally.
PS:
Who runs EWTN? It seems to be such a better expression of the faith than that presented by big city parishes.
Thanks again.
And here is my point: The Catholic Catechism means NOTHING to me! Jesus Christ, His indwelling Spirit, and His revealed word, the Bible, DO mean everything to me. Come to think of it, that was the whole point of the Reformation. As long as you stick to your parochial denominational teachings, rather than focus on the foundation of our faith (Jesus Christ!), you're wasting my time.
They did it the same way converts and martyrs are being created today in places like China, where there are very few Bibles...They did it by the power of the Holy Spirit. And your statement that the "Bible didn't exist" during the early years of the church is wrong. Jesus authenticated His personage and His work of redemption from the passages of the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms. Also, the letters which became the New Testament were all written in the first century, to the young churches. Granted, they didn't have the availability of Bibles as we do today (finding one in every motel room), but these letters were copied and passed around. So, together with the preaching of the travelling apostles, the testimony of what we now call the Old Testament, the growing body of letters we now call the New Testament, and the presence of the Holy Spirit, the church grew. Mainly, it grew because of the presence and power of the Spirit of Christ.
Uh, who exactly used the phrase "The Catholic Church is the devil"? Once again, it seems to me that you, sir, are the perpetrator of slander and lies.
And my point, again, is this: As long as you, or your church, place anything or anyone ahead of Jesus Christ in terms of being our only mediator with the Father, you're wrong, and you'll be strenuously opposed, just as you have been for the last 500 years. I have no argument with sincere Catholics. But I have strong argument with any teaching which diminishes the person or work of Jesus Christ.
...and just to show you that I'm an equal opportunity crusader, I took my Baptist church to task for diminishing the person and work of Christ, in favor of busy-work in perpetuating the wealth and position of the church. Where Christ is preached, I will fellowship with anyone -- Catholic, Baptist, Presbryterian, or Pentecostal. You, on the other hand, earlier accused anyone who doesn't pray the Rosary as having strayed from the true path.
It took the Christian church about a thousand years to rediscover the freedom they have in Christ, which is only found in the grace of God, and thereby shake off the stifling traditions of a church that had become choked with the traditions of men.
I said the Bible as we know it. Various Scriptures were written and passed around but the entire codified body of writings we have today did not exist for two to three centuries. Even so, after that, most people didn't read. Illiteracy in the general population was common for centuries. The Faith was not spread by the average believer opening up his personal scroll to read the Gospel.
You need to do a little historical investigation into the life of the early Church.
The guy came here to ask about Catholic faith and you have hijacked the whole thread for your own whim and fancy, just like your self-made-god faith. Thanks a heap.
You should be ashamed. You should apologize to him.
Have you seen the movie Luther? There is a wonderful line in the midst of the story: Martin is translating the NT into German, in awe of the complexity of the original language of the text and of the difficulty of rightly choosing the appropriate and complete word in his native tongue to translate not only the word, but the full concept which the word conveys. The script writer(s) chose a passage concerning God's "WILL" for this scene. Martin laments (and I paraphrase from memory, having already loaned the DVD out) that the word in the original conveys 'passion, even sexual passion, desire! How can I share that understanding with our people through that word "will" when it conveys only the authority of a ruler? Yet the Spirit brings the Word to life.'
I've enjoyed your thread tremendously.
This is really funny.
I understand that the catechism means "nothing" to you.
But aren't you the one who is presenting yourself as an expert on catholicism?
Don't you think that before you parade your anti-catholic bigotry before others that it may be useful to actually UNDERSTAND what catholics believe?
So again you prove my point...many people hate what they THINK the Church is - but they have no clue what the Church actually teaches!
And it isn't just you - many catholics are not properly instructed as to what their own teaches either. I know I wasn't!
Where exactly do you think that bible of yours came from anyway? I mean this in a HISTORICAL context. How was it compiled? Who made the decisions? Why do you trust their judgement?
You talk about foundations. Did you know the bible teaches us what the foundation of the truth is?
1 Timothy 2:15 "...you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Jesus said he would build a church - well, did He or didn't He?
Who WERE these first christians and what did they believe?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
The reformation was much more complicated than your description. There was much corruption at the time. It was not the first time or the last. Martin Luther was not the first, nor the last catholic who attempted to fight corruption. Bernard, Catherine of Siena, Francis - just to name a few - fought for reform WITHIN the Church - they brought about change FOR the Church.
Martin Luther did not work within the Church. His "reform" divided the Body of Christ.
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ387.HTM#MARTIN%20LUTHER
I suggest before you attempt to refute what others believe you take the time understand them first. Otherwise all you are doing is blowing hot air and exposing your ignorance.
Is Christ divided?
Revelation 3
1And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: These things saith he that has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have not found thy works complete before my God.
3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and keep [it] and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come [upon thee] as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I shall come upon thee.
4But thou hast a few names in Sardis which have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy.
5He that overcomes, *he* shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, and will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
6He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.
~ Darby
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This is one letter our Master Jesus wrote through his apostle John to the seven churches of His Revelation. Are there seven churches? Or one?
Revelation
14And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot.
16Thus because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and am grown rich, and have need of nothing, and knowest not that *thou* art the wretched and the miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked;
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold purified by fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white garments, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not be made manifest; and eye-salve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.
19I rebuke and discipline as many as I love; be zealous therefore and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me.
21He that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne; as *I* also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne.
22He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.
~Darby
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Another of our Master's letters to the seven churches of His Revelation.
Revelation 2
1To the angel of the assembly in Ephesus write: These things says he that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lamps:
2I know thy works and [thy] labour, and thine endurance, and that thou canst not bear evil [men]; and thou hast tried them who say that themselves [are] apostles and are not, and hast found them liars;
3and endurest, and hast borne for my name's sake, and hast not wearied:
4but I have against thee, that thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works: but if not, I am coming to thee, and I will remove thy lamp out of its place, except thou shalt repent.
6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitanes, which *I* also hate.
7He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him that overcomes, I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.
~Darby
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3 of 7.
8And to the angel of the assembly in Smyrna write: These things says the first and the last, who became dead, and lived:
9I know thy tribulation and thy poverty; but thou art rich; and the railing of those who say that they themselves are Jews, and are not, but a synagogue of Satan.
10Fear nothing [of] what thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life.
11He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He that overcomes shall in no wise be injured of the second death.
12And to the angel of the assembly in Pergamos write: These things says he that has the sharp two-edged sword:
13I know where thou dwellest, where the throne of Satan [is]; and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in the days in which Antipas my faithful witness [was], who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
14But I have a few things against thee: that thou hast there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a snare before the sons of Israel, to eat [of] idol sacrifices and commit fornication.
15So thou also hast those who hold the doctrine of Nicolaitanes in like manner.
16Repent therefore: but if not, I come to thee quickly, and I will make war with them with the sword of my mouth.
17He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him that overcomes, to him will I give of the hidden manna; and I will give to him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows but he that receives [it].
~Darby
18And to the angel of the assembly in Thyatira write: These things says the Son of God, he that has his eyes as a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass:
19I know thy works, and love, and faith, and service, and thine endurance, and thy last works [to be] more than the first.
20But I have against thee that thou permittest the woman Jezebel, she who calls herself prophetess, and she teaches and leads astray my servants to commit fornication and eat of idol sacrifices.
21And I gave her time that she should repent, and she will not repent of her fornication.
22Behold, I cast her into a bed, and those that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,
23and her children will I kill with death; and all the assemblies shall know that *I* am he that searches [the] reins and [the] hearts; and I will give to you each according to your works.
24But to you I say, the rest who [are] in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I do not cast upon you any other burden;
25but what ye have hold fast till I shall come.
26And he that overcomes, and he that keeps unto the end my works, to him will I give authority over the nations,
27and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod; as vessels of pottery are they broken in pieces, as I also have received from my Father;
28and I will give to him the morning star.
29He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.
~Darby
Revelation 3
7And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write: These things saith the holy, the true; he that has the key of David, he who opens and no one shall shut, and shuts and no one shall open:
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut, because thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that *I* have loved thee.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, *I* also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
12He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name.
13He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.
~Darby
Does Catholicism teach that priests are middlemen? I.E. do I really need a Priest to make me right and forgive my sins? Must I confess to a priest, and not just directly to God?
Priests serve the function of teachers and counselors and stand "in persona Christi" for the sacraments. Confession is all about human nature - the best way I have heard it expressed is God doesn't not need us to go to confession - we need it. There is something very powerful about unloading our guilt and hearing the words "I forgive you". From a theological standpoint this is one of the places where the Priest acts "in persona Christi", we believe it is not the Priest that utters the words of absolution but Christ himself. From a psychological standpoint, the world has only caught up with this concept of confession in the last 100 years or less - the Church has taught the necessity and value of confession since the very beginning. This is of course one of the 7 sacraments found in the very words of Christ in the gospel.
Does the beauty of the mass, and the worhsip of Mary and the Saint amount to idolatry?
Catholic iconography is again something that is for the benefit of the faithful - God does not need beautiful Churches, statutes and paintings - we do. The Church teaches we are sensory creatures - ie we interact with the world thru our 5 senses therefore we make use of these senses to enhance our devotion.
As for Mary and the other saints - have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? For all the hay some fundamentalists want to make of it, it's really that simple. The petition at the end of the "Hail Mary" makes it completely clear
"Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us now and at the hour of our death"
That's all we are doing, asking particularly holy individuals recognized by the Church for their holiness and piety to pray to God for us. Mary is very special of course, if you want something from someone who could possibly be a better intercessor on your behalf than His mother!
Most importantly is the submission to authority. Submitting to authority is the biggest problem in my life. It was a problem with my parents, it has been a problem with my jobs (witness my day time freeping), and it was a problem with Christ. I have overcome it with Christ (although still struggle with it) and have made good progess with parents, bosses, etc.
Get in line, those of us indoctrinated in the American idealogy of liberalism and individual "rights" have a great deal of trouble with authority. Of course it's not a uniquely American problem, but I do think our culture makes it worse. (the rugged individualist and all that).
Does a Catholic submit to an authority other than God? While I admire and trust the men I watch on EWTN, it only takes a few minutes of FReeping to be reminded of limp-wristed catholics. Or, to be more generous, by accepting the authority of the church, am I accepting the authority of the MEN who run the church?
You are getting into issues of infallibility here. I suggest you learn what this implies.
Dogma - these are Truths of the faith which are supernaturally protected from error. The points of the Nicean creed, the immaculate conception (of Mary) and her Assumption, the inerrancy of scripture etc..These are non-negotiable, if you refuse to give assent of your mind and will to these you are not Catholic, period. Public denial of Church dogmas is the very defintion of the crime of heresy.
Other issues are less rigidly defined. We should give ear and strong consideration to the teachings of individual bishops and priest - they are generally wise and highly educated and holy men (most not all) but that doesn't mean they are always right.
In protestantism, one can walk away from a pastor with unsound teachings. However, how does one do this in Catholicism? What does one think when a Vatican offical utters something stupid (like criticizing Israel for not giving aid, when in reality Israel offered the aid and Sri Lanka rejected it)? Or, when local bishops have been complicit in covering up sex scandals and transferring priests to inflict their harm elsewhere?
You can't confuse the Church with the sinful and fallible men that make up Her human element. You certainly don't have to sit and listen to a priest that is teaching heresy or is just plain ignorant. In all charity we have the right and the duty to bring such matters to the attentions of the priest in question and in some cases his boss the Bishop. In this way the dogmas of the faith are the great equalizer - priests, bishops, even the Pope are bound by the same dogmas as the laity.
Keep listening to EWTN, they are doing great work out there.
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