Role of Miracles In Sainthood Eyed

The Washington Post ^ | January 1, 2005 | AP

[Land of the Irish]

Saturday, January 1, 2005; Page B07

Role of Miracles In Sainthood Eyed

Pope John Paul II is reported to be considering a proposal to abolish miracles as a requirement for sainthood.

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, archbishop of Genoa, told the Genoa newspaper Secolo XIX recently that there is a growing feeling that the key requirement for sainthood is a life of "heroic virtue" and that miracles are "anachronistic."

Bertone said the proposal was sent to the pope by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Until two years ago, the cardinal was secretary of the congregation, the Vatican's arbiter on questions of faith and morals.

[Arguss]

First Devil's Advocate, now Miracles. The Church has tied the hands of God to decide who will be a Saint.

I don't think the Church doubts that God can deliver miracles to create His Saints, but rather that He will.

To avoid appearances of impropriety, if the decision is made it should be held for 100 years before taking effect. That way it won't look as if the Pontiff is paving his own way.

[Grey Ghost II]

the nutritive soul from the beginning, then the sensitive, lastly the intellectual soul. (St. Thomas, Summa theologiae I q. 118 a. 2)

I believe it was in the Commentary on the Book of Sentences where he stated the number of days for a soul to enter the embryo was 40 days for a male and 90 days for a female. I will try to find the source for you, but I know it wasn't in the Summa where he stated the belief.

[Grey Ghost II]

Mother Teresa didn't live her life for "The Faith." She lived it for the poor, and is in heaven because of it.

I was referring to martyrdom not sainthood. Do you understand the difference?

[Grey Ghost II]

GGII: If Maximilian Kolbe is martyr then every fireman who ran into the burning World Trade Center buildings should also be a martyr.

Sinkspur: I have no problem with that at all.

GGII: Fits with your belief that Hell is empty.

[sinkspur]

I was referring to martyrdom not sainthood. Do you understand the difference?

You were saying that only those who die for The Faith should be declared saints.

I say you don't really know what the Faith is if dying for one's fellow man is not martyrdom.

"As long as you did for one of these, the least of my brethren, you did it for Me."

What does that mean to you?

[Land of the Irish]

This pope and his royal court spins faster than a windmill in a cyclone (the breath of the “spirit of VCII” perhaps?).

First it was no further spread of Communion in the paw and no talk of altar girls. Now they’re both normative in your normative Masses.

Devil’s advocate then? Yes
Devil’s advocate now? No

Two miracles reduced to one miracle and now possibly no miracles?

Change – good
Tradition - bad

[Grey Ghost II]

You were saying that only those who die for The Faith should be declared saints.

You are mistaken. I never said nor implied any such thing. Such an idea is ludicrous. Anybody who thought so, would have to deny that the Blessed Mother is not a saint.

[Grey Ghost II]

would have to deny that the Blessed Mother is not a saint.

Correction: would have to deny that Blessed Mother is a saint.

[sassbox]

I actually met Pasnau a few years ago - I was in a summer program/seminar at UC Boulder for undergrads considering grad school in philosophy and he directed the seminar. Seemed like a nice guy, bought us lots of free food - sad to hear he's an anti-Catholic bigot :(

[freedumb2003]

OOOh OOh Sanctify me!!

[Grey Ghost II]

I believe that if Aquinas had benefited from scientific exploration and the witness of those who -- like the late geneticist extraordinnaire Dr. Lejeune -- have a more objective view of human creation, he too would have seen the error of his ways.

Agree. He was human and he made a mistake. My only point in bringing it up, is to demonstrate that one can't quote a saint and assume it's some sort of infallible pronouncement.

[gbcdoj]

I believe it was in the Commentary on the Book of Sentences

I think you are thinking of IV Sent d. 31, in the exposition, where it is stated that "they who procure drugs of sterility are not spouses, but fornicators. This sin may be exceedingly grave, and to be reckoned among wickednesses, and against nature ... however it is less than homicide". This is hardly a license to abort.

[Grey Ghost II]

This is hardly a license to abort.

I never said that St. Thomas in any way condoned abortion. I just said he was mistaken on when life begins.

[gbcdoj]

Well what you said was "St. Thomas denied that life begins at conception. Do you therefore think early 1st trimester abortions are ok?" - as if the second conclusion followed from the first. Thomas thought that life did begin at conception, just that the rational soul wasn't infused until later. This is still an acceptable position - indeed, the CDF Declaration on Procured Abortion notes that:

This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement ... supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul in which the nature received from parents is completed ...

[Grey Ghost II]

Well what you said was "St. Thomas denied that life begins at conception. Do you therefore think early 1st trimester abortions are ok?" - as if the second conclusion followed from the first.

There was no second conclusion - it was a question to YOU, not an indictment of St. Thomas.

[gbcdoj]

Okay - looked like a rhetorical question to me.

[marshmallow]

Come again? Twelve days ago?

I posted links to two articles.

The first, The Zenit News Agency article on Miracles, was published in May, 2004.

The second, to the original article in The Times (on which your Wash Post article is based) is dated Dec 20, 2004. Twelve days ago.

Seemed fairly clear to me.

[thor76]

If Mother Theresa - or anyone - is a saint in heaven, it is not because of what they did for the poor, it is because of their faith in Christ, and obedience to His law, and the example of their lives for others.

If Mother Theresa did not live her life "for the faith" then all she did was labor in vain. For if it is not done for Christ, all labor is in vain.

"What do you think the Faith is anyway? How can you die for a God you do not see if you are not willing to die for a human being you can see?"

By this statement you tread on very dangerous ground. Dying to save another human being is a good & noble act, but it is not worthy of sainthood. One must die for Christ......for the faith. That is martydom, which merits sainthood. It is the total, complete, trusting and blind faith in this God whom I cannot see which is my salvation - and the salvation of one who would die for Christ.

That is faith. That is the key to salvation. To beleive beyond the point of belief.

As to the criteria which Christ himself will use on Judgement day - it will be every thought, word, and deed of ours. Nothing is kept secret - all is exposed. Indeed - every time you failed to go to mass through your own fault (i.e. laziness) will be brought up. Every impure thought. Every unjustified thought of anger. Every lie. All of it.

All sin must be paid for. Your sins will be weighed against your faith, your prayers, your sacrifices, your penance, contrition, and compunction for your sins. Your love for Jesus.

Maximillian Kolbe is a saint because of his faith. Because of the herioc example of his life - in bring the faith to thousands upon thousand via his Knights of the Immaculata. The fact that he willingly offered to die in place of a man with a family was his sacrifice to God in reperation for his sins, and the sins of others.

He did not die for the faith; he was not put to death because he was Catholic - or a priest. Rather he chose to live his last days in a starvation bunker as a living testament to Christ and for Christ, helping to the last to prepare the other poor dying men with him for death and judgement.

That is what made hium a saint.

[ultima ratio]

"To avoid appearances of impropriety, if the decision is made it should be held for 100 years before taking effect. That way it won't look as if the Pontiff is paving his own way"

Too late. There already is an appearance of impropriety. That's putting it charitably. Some would say impropriety has already corrupted the process.

[Pyro7480]

They already abolished the requirement that one die for the Faith to become a martyr (i.e. Maximilian Kolbe)

St. Maximilian Kolbe may have volunteered to die, in order that another should live, but the reason why he was in a consentration camp in the first place was precisely because of his Catholic faith. He "lived Jesus" by "laying down his life for his friends," therefore displaying the "greater love" Our Lord spoke of in John 15.