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Origin of the Twelve Days of Christmas [An Underground Catechism]
Catholic Information Network.org ^ | 12-17-05 | Fr. Hal Stockert

Posted on 12/26/2004 5:44:28 PM PST by Salvation

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To: Publius6961
It isamazing how many sites I found that had references to this, isn't it? And I think I went through only two of Google's pages. PS. I know you are jesting.
21 posted on 12/26/2004 7:18:52 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Oztrich Boy

That site has so many pop ups on it I won't even go there.


22 posted on 12/26/2004 7:20:09 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
Um, since pretty much all of those twelve points are coincident with the teachings of Christian Orthodoxy then WHY would English catholics make a "spy song" out of them (as a memory aid with supposedly hidden equivalencies) when they were perfectly able to find them taught in ALL the churches in England anyway?

The song has nothing Marian in it (excessive reverence to Mary is counter to Protestant teaching) nor anything Petrine (or any papal reference: another sticking-point between catholicism and Protestantism) so, why bother with a 'hidden meaning'-type of song enumerating non-controversial points of doctrine?

Nice story, cute; but it's still just a SONG.

23 posted on 12/26/2004 7:27:41 PM PST by solitas
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To: solitas

Yes, I realize it is JUST a song, however, I am more interested in getting people to realize that Christmas time is the time through Christmas Day until the Epiphany.

Hopefully you understand that and agree with it. It was always difficult to explain to my children why our tree stayed up longer than all their friends' trees.

I guess Christians and Catholics are just different than the non-believers that way.


24 posted on 12/26/2004 7:35:24 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
I'm a Christian. I'm also reasonably educated. Just because I get an email claiming something is true is no reason for me to believe it. Logic tells me that there's no difference in the Bible of Catholics and the Bible of Anglicans. Why would Catholics have to refer to Christ as "a partridge in a pear tree" instead of referring to him the way Anglicans did-- as Christ? Why would Catholics have to refer to the first five books of the Bible as "5 Golden Rings" instead of referring to them the way that Anglicans referred to them?

Offer me some actual evidence that "The Twelve Days of Christmas" was code for keeping Catholic tradition alive in the 16th & 17th Centuries and I may believe you. To cite an email that makes the rounds every year as proof is ludicrous.

Think.

25 posted on 12/26/2004 8:13:16 PM PST by freebilly (Go Santa Cruz Basketball! Beat Palo Alto!)
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To: Salvation
Oh! don't get me wrong - I wasn't commenting to You in particular; just generally about the song. :) I can understand Your point.

I keep my tree up 'way past Orthodox Christmas - we've had Valentines Day trees and Easter trees: I flavor the water with MiracleGrow (about a quarter to a third of what they recommend for indoor plants) and the damned things just keep going on happily! Still have a nice scent, and I've gotten better than 2" of new growth on 'em some years before we finally get tired enough of 'em to toss 'em outside.

As long as they keep their needles well (Fraser firs and Balsams are preferred) I've no problems letting them grow.

26 posted on 12/26/2004 8:21:50 PM PST by solitas
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To: freebilly

I'm confushed; where did you get the impression that this was an email? I linked it to the Catholic Information Network. (also posted a link to the author's credentials)


27 posted on 12/26/2004 8:36:57 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: solitas

Good idea about keep the trees green and growing. I never thought about putting Miracle Grow in the water, but it makes sense. Thanks for the hint.


28 posted on 12/26/2004 8:38:33 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
During the recently passed secular celebration of Christmas, I heard an advertisement on radio for some business.

The lyrics went: on the first day "of the SEASON" my true love gave to me.....insert gift item.

"Of the SEASON" was so offensive because of the replacement of the word Christmas. "Honestly, though," the thought came to me, "What in the world do they mean by 12 days?!"

It is clear they were parroting something they knew nothing about....as they attempted to avoid the word "Christmas" they highlighted the season.

29 posted on 12/26/2004 10:54:41 PM PST by xzins (The Party Spirit -- why I don't take the other side seriously!)
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To: Salvation
I think that the "12 days" is a marvelous anthem to Christmas - don't let the nay sayers ruin it.

At my house, the tree and decorations stay up till at least the 6th of Jan for the feast of the Epiphany.

At my house, we follow an old polish custom of marking all the door posts with the initials of the Three Kings, separated by a cross, using blessed chalk on the door posts above the doors. Looks like this G+M+B 05

The story goes something like this: On Jan 6, when the three wise men are on their way to Bethlehem, if your doors are marked, they will pass through your house and give their blessing to your family and each room that is marked. Is it true? Will they actually pass through your house? I don't know but its a wonderful custom and IF it is true, well, we can never have too many blessings!

Thanks for your posts!

30 posted on 12/27/2004 3:08:18 AM PST by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
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To: Salvation

Catholics were oppressed in the colonies, also. The protestant reformation in Maryland was fairly brutal.


31 posted on 12/27/2004 3:17:04 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (This tagline under construction....)
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To: freebilly
Read any objective history of England..the supression of Christianty (membership in the Roman Catholic Church) was brutal. Priests and nuns (and the people that hid them) were hunted down and killed for many centuries. Read the life of St Thomas More or Saint Mary Ann Seton.

The rise of the Church of England (not a Christian church), promulgated by the divorce of Henry the VIII was not a spontanious outpouring by religious libertarians.

England.(translated "Angel-terre" of "Land of the angels") was Catholic the day after the first Roman outpost crumbled.

British Protestants need to complete their unholy rebellion by dropping "Land of Angels" as the name of their country and stick with "Britain" or any other pagan/athiest/socialist concoction they can think of.

32 posted on 12/27/2004 4:02:59 AM PST by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
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This post calls to mind how Marcus Grodi of the Coming Home network reminded his viewers of how as a Protestant minister he never understood the Roman Catholic basis for the practice of Christianity especially around Christmas.

The Advent wreath with the one pink candle was a happy accident.

The embarrassing (to him) image of the Holy Family would come up and he would never, ever preach on it.

Some of his churches would even put a manger on the altar!!!! Horror of Horror STATUES!!!!

And now we come to this 12 days of Christmas song...what? no one-day celebration with a turkey, $1400.00 in gifts for the kiddies delivered by Satan Claus followed up by some football game?????

33 posted on 12/27/2004 4:10:34 AM PST by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
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To: solitas; Salvation

Even as a taditional Catholic I have always thought the supposedly hidden premise of the song was a lot of bunk. There is nothing in the song that so called non Catholic Chrstians would object to. So why would the meanings have to be hidden?

Lets say there were hidden Catholic meanings. Who would hold the catechism class to teach this to all the kiddies, and how would you keep this class a secret? Once the kids went to it the whole neighborhood would know about it.

And how would the author have spread the word about his intentions? Would he send a notice around to all the Catholics he knew? He may indeed have wrtten the song with those hidden inentions in mind, but he may even have been a protestant, because I'm sure even protestants appreciate a catchy jingle with a double entendre religious meaning.

Any set of numbers from 1-12 can be used to bring to mind almost any set of circumstances.

I think it was during the 50's or 60's Red Sovine had a popular song out about a deck of cards. It seems a soldier took out the deck during a wartime religious service and got in trouble for it until he explained the religious meaning of every card in the deck. He used it as his Bible. It's possible some person will find this song 500 years from now and attribute it to the oppression of the 60's and howChristians had to resort to a deck ofcards to pray in secret, and be glad they didn't live during those barbaric times.


34 posted on 12/27/2004 6:55:26 AM PST by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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To: Salvation

Obviously not Catholic. None of the images are Mary.


35 posted on 12/27/2004 7:23:26 AM PST by DManA
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To: Arguss
Exactly so! ;) What's the point to hold 'secret classes' to teach the 'hidden meanings' of the song (so why even BOTHER?) when none of those meanings are outside of "baseline" Christianity anyway?

There are threads around about "Deck of Cards". I believe it was written by T. 'Texas' Tyler, and I have the Wink Martindale version (I didn't know Red 'Teddy Bear' Sovine also recorded it). I googled it a while back; but haven't lately...

36 posted on 12/27/2004 8:00:14 AM PST by solitas
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To: solitas; Arguss

Could the children have been taught at home by their parents?

One by one the poem/music could have been distributed without notice.

It seems we all need to look back into history and see if Catholics were really prosecuted during these times. That, as far as I am aware, has not been researched on this particular thread.


37 posted on 12/27/2004 9:09:37 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Pio

Nope, Christmas runs through the Epiphany! And Christmastime in the Catholic Church covers two octaves, (weeks) until the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord.


38 posted on 12/27/2004 9:12:06 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
Reflections for Advent and Christmas, [November 28, 2004 - January 9, 2005]
39 posted on 12/27/2004 9:12:47 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
"It seems we all need to look back into history and see if Catholics were really prosecuted during these times. That, as far as I am aware, has not been researched on this particular thread."

Are you serious or just pouting? I for one am not in doubt about the persecution of Catholics during this era. The English martyrs are among the greatest heroes of the Church to have given their blood for Jesus and the Church and I hope will never be forgotten.

It's just the prominence and mystique this song has garnered that I question.

40 posted on 12/27/2004 10:36:22 AM PST by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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