METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE

Spirit Daily ^ | December 12, 2004 | Mike Brown

[NYer]

The Chicago Tribune reports that when some members of Amor de Dios United Methodist Church in an area called Little Village elected to move a statue of the Virgin of Guadalupe into the sanctuary last year, "the icon spawned an exodus."

Turned off by the introduction of a Roman Catholic tradition to a Protestant congregation, most of the church's 15 founding parishioners drifted away. To them, venerating the Virgin Mary and reciting the rosary did not belong in a Methodist church.

But this is part of a trend nationwide: mainline Protestant churches and even some evangelical ones (in places like California, with a strong Mexican populace) are accepting the veneration of statues, which for decades has been misinterpreted as idolatry. Pastors of other Hispanic Methodist congregations objected too. Meanwhile, and curiously,

Roman Catholics in the neighborhood fret that the church might be selling itself as something it was not.

"Rev. Jose Landaverde allowed the statue to stay," reports the newspaper. "He says he sees no harm in embracing a tradition--the Virgin is an unofficial national symbol of Mexico--that might bring people closer to God. 'It's coming from the people, which is the real presence of the Holy Spirit,' said Landaverde, 31, a student pastor from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary. 'You cannot bring theological debates to the people when they need spiritual assistance.'"

The Tribune reports that this month, parishioners celebrated their first novena in honor of the Virgin of Guadalupe by parading the two-foot-high statue around the neighborhood, singing songs and reciting the rosary. "About two dozen parishioners weathered the chill each night to deliver the statue to a different living room, where it was surrounded by garland, twinkling lights, roses and poinsettias. On Sunday, parishioners will commence the traditional Feast Day for the Virgin of Guadalupe and, through prayers, mariachi music, drama and dancing, pay homage. 'The Virgin understands our suffering and she accompanies us everywhere we go,' said church member Oscar Hernandez, who grew up Roman Catholic in El Salvador but now considers himself a Methodist. 'We don't want to take away the faith that this community has, but we want to nourish it.'"

The parish council discerned that something was missing--the Virgin of Guadalupe.

"Since I was little, it's always been right to have the Virgin Mary in the church," said Olivia Serrato, 40, one of the original parishioners who decided to stay after the Virgin was introduced. "It's now a great honor to bring the Virgin Mary to my Methodist church. Before I didn't feel complete."
 

[Kolokotronis]

LOL! But I note that whoever made the cafe should be ashamed; no "Kaimaki" ( a light foam level) on the top!

[Cold Heat]

Fair enough, and well said.

I wish I had the historical and religious training to argue with you over the fine points. But I just have not wished to develop that knowledge.

I probably would be pretty good at it! I have an engineers mind on most other subjects, except this one.

I have always viewed my spirituality as a private matter. I suppose I am more liken to our Deist founders in that regard.

I wish to quietly live out the balance of my life as I quietly prepare for death and beyond.

I have been a bit more vocal since experiencing Gibson's "Passion" and my faith was renewed to higher plane at that time, or perhaps just clarified as to the meaning of the sacrifice.

We shall see where that leads me and my relationship with God and religion. But I doubt I would ever have the depth of knowledge it would take to argue the fine points on this fine forum.

[Cold Heat]

Please don't take offense. I have learned some new words and understanding since making that post. (like veneration)

Can't blame me too much for not understanding the concept. It is totally foreign to me.

[Kolokotronis]

"I wish I had the historical and religious training to argue with you over the fine points. But I just have not wished to develop that knowledge."

Please don't feel that way. Theological discussions are fine to a point. After that without the proper guidance and prayer, such discussions can spin off into some pretty dangerous territory, spiritually speaking. A number of us were recently involved in a discussion which reached that point and perhaps went a bit beyond it. The demons were howling outside the door of the library (I do mean that). One by one, and quite quickly, we dropped the thread because we perceived the perilous place we had wandered into.

All of us firmly believe that our Liturgies and services and devotions provide any person with quite literally everything which is needed for individual theosis within a Eucharistic community. All the theological discussing we do helps some of us along the way, but its an addition and nothing more. My great grandmother from Greece was a very holy woman whose Faith defined her existence. She couldn't spell dogma or canon and undoubtedly would laugh at all of us amateur theologians and tell us to go light a candle, incense and kiss our icons and say our prayers.

You'll do just fine, I have no doubt, my friend. Do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.

[Cold Heat]

My great grandmother from Greece was a very holy woman whose Faith defined her existence.

This sounds very much like my late Grandmother. She came to this country around 1923-26 from Yugoslavia.

It totally defined her in every way. I have never seen anything like it before or since.

[Kolokotronis]

"This sounds very much like my late Grandmother. She came to this country around 1923-26 from Yugoslavia.

It totally defined her in every way. I have never seen anything like it before or since."

Stop by any Orthodox Church on a Sunday. Places are full of them!

[Cold Heat]

Shawls, veils and the smell of mothballs!

[Cold Heat]

I meant that reverently......:-)

[Kolokotronis]

She was from the Balkans, wasn't she! You know, they still use mothballs over there. At my aunt's house the mothball smell is so strong my eyes water and the food tastes of them if its left out any length of time! But I've never seen a moth in Greece!

[Cold Heat]

The smell gags me to this day. We visited frequently as a child and every time I think of her, I smell the mothballs.

I have some that I use to control stray cats in my boat, and I have to store them in the outside shed.

[Aquinasfan]

One of the early Church Fathers once complained that he couldn't get his daily errands done in Constantinople because the butcher and the shoe maker were more interested in arguing fine points about the nature of Christ or the procession of the Holy Spirit than they were in doing their jobs!

Now they're watching porn over the internet. I wouldn't call this progress.

[xzins]

I'm an ordained Methodist elder (equivalent of your priest), NYer, in the United Methodist Church.

It is necessary to point out to you on this thread one of the unchangeable "Articles of Religion" of the United Methodist Church. (This is in the 1700's language of John Wesley.)

Article 14—Of Purgatory The Romish doctrine concerning purgatory, pardon, worshiping, and adoration, as well of images as of relics, and also invocation of saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warrant of Scripture, but repugnant to the Word of God.

That said, this does not say that one cannot have a serious discussion about art and the church as opposed to veneration/adoration etc. In other words, it's the PURPOSE of any "art" that makes it appropriate or inappropriate.

If for reflection, commemoration, etc., then there's no problem. As soon (I'm speaking about our church) as one crosses the line into veneration, adoration, worship, etc., then one has violated our 14th Article of Religion.

[xzins]

I'm an ordained Methodist elder (equivalent of your priest), NYer, in the United Methodist Church.

It is necessary to point out to you on this thread one of the unchangeable "Articles of Religion" of the United Methodist Church. (This is in the 1700's language of John Wesley.)

Article 14—Of Purgatory The Romish doctrine concerning purgatory, pardon, worshiping, and adoration, as well of images as of relics, and also invocation of saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warrant of Scripture, but repugnant to the Word of God.

That said, this does not say that one cannot have a serious discussion about art and the church as opposed to veneration/adoration etc. In other words, it's the PURPOSE of any "art" that makes it appropriate or inappropriate.

If for reflection, commemoration, etc., then there's no problem. As soon (I'm speaking about our church) as one crosses the line into veneration, adoration, worship, etc., then one has violated our 14th Article of Religion.

[The Grammarian]

Given that the student pastor of this congregation is a student at Garrett-Evangelical, I guess I'm simultaneously surprised and not. On the one hand, G-E has been increasingly heterodox over the years; on the other hand, its heterodoxy has always been directly to paganism, not to Roman Catholicism.

Given what the article says about the parishioners reciting the rosary and parading the 2-foot-high statue around, it sounds like they ARE violating Article 14, though.

[xzins]

parading the statue

Yes, it would appear so. You and I know it, but if they have a complicit bishop, article 14 won't be enforced.

Greetings, brother, did you get my answer to the question about ordination?

[The Grammarian]

Yes, it would appear so. You and I know it, but if they have a complicit bishop, article 14 won't be enforced.

Isn't Illinois Bishop Sprague's little fiefdom still? If so, there's no way.

Greetings, brother, did you get my answer to the question about ordination?

Yep, and thanks for the info. I don't think I really have a 'problem' with it, per se, so much as I just wish I could find more satisfying reasons why we do it. ;)

[Romulus]

When you mention your discomfort with icons, are you aware that Christ himself is an icon?

Read Colossians 1:15 os estin eikwn qeon aoratou ("He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.")

[The Grammarian]

When you mention your discomfort with icons, are you aware that Christ himself is an icon?

Read Colossians 1:15 os estin eikwn qeon aoratou ("He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.")

And we worship that icon of the Father--so are you saying we should directly worship the man-made icons as well as the begotten-not-made one?

[Romulus]

Of course not. We don't worship Christ because he's the icon of the Father. We worship Christ because of who he is. It's the fact that Jesus is fully divine in himself that makes him worship-worthy.

Suppose on Mt. Sinai, instead of writing the Law with his own finger on tablets of stone, God had written a carved or painted image. Would it have been worship-worthy? Not on your life, any more than stone tablets or the Bible is.

When we venerate (not "adore"! not "worship"!) sacred images, we are not venerating wood or paint or anything that resides in the image. Our veneration passes to the prototype for whom it's intended. When you gaze lovingly on a photo of someone special in your life, is your love directed at paper and chemicals or for the person they represent?

[Kolokotronis]

"As soon (I'm speaking about our church) as one crosses the line into veneration, adoration, worship, etc., then one has violated our 14th Article of Religion."

This is likely clear from the rule you have quoted from John Wesley. But I have a question. I assume that Wesley did not think he was creating an entirely new and previously unheard of religion when Methodism was established. If I am correct, it appears that your 14th Article is in direct contradiction to the decision of the 7th Ecumenical Council, which was a council of the entire One Church, cited earlier. It would seem to be the enactment in your 25 Articles of a point of positive heresy. Far from being a "Romish" doctrine, this was a statement of dogma of the One Church in the persons of mostly Eastern bishops and the Empress. Would John Wesley have been aware of this (I assume he was as he was an educated man) and how did he deal with this apparent heresy? If he knowingly rejected this dogma proclaimed by the council, why and what other dogmas did he reject and on what basis. Thanks.