Posted on 12/09/2004 10:15:01 PM PST by Salvation
Exactly. It wasn't a good thing to bring up the dead.
Yes, He does answer the prayers, the effectual fervent prayers, of the righteous. Nowhere in your provided scripture, including Revelation, does it say to PRAY TO THE DECEASED and that they will intercede for you. The deceased in Christ are in heaven but their race is over. Rev 5:8 does not show "The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth." Psalms 103 is NOT asking angels to pray for us. How do you get that from that scripture?
The prayers of saints spoken of in Revelation could be that of our own going directly to God. He says that if WE will call upon Him that He will hear us. He does not tell us that if we call upon Abraham or any other that He will hear from Abraham or any other on our behalf. The only person who is ascribed mediator status is Christ. He is the only one.
Yes, the word does say to pray one for another. I don't dispute that. But,
Last night, I read as much as I could get my hands on here at home and on the internet concerning this. One thing that I found very interesting was the word used for saint in the Greek text. "Hagios" was used in the NT many times, not just in Rev. and it literally means "holy". This word was used to describe those sealed and set apart by Christ. It was used for those both living(Eph 4:12) and dead (Matt 27:52).
But, she never participated in it, it was never a weakness for her or what have you. Looking in on a problem from the outside does not make you experienced in that area. She was never "blemished" by sin whereas Jesus took everyone of them upon Himself. I trust a sinful man to pray for me any day over someone who cannot understand how it affects your life because they have never actually experienced it. Even Jesus "experienced" it in that He took the sins of the world upon Himself. Who better understands it than Him?
They don't get it.
Even Mary needed Jesus as her Savior. As in Old Testament we are NOT to pray TO images or dead people but ONLY to the LIVING GOD. This totally escapes them. Maybe this is why they HAVE to rely on extraneous "knowledge" other than the Bible - as in this thread. Rationalizing away what the Bible CLEARLY states doesn't leave anyone "tongue tied" unless they are NOT famliar with what the Bible states on THIS issue.
Maybe later I'll get out the verses that state such.
Just because she was born without original sin does not mean she was not tempted.
Did you see "The Passion of the Christ"? Can you count the number of time the Blessed Virgin Mary was tempted, but she kept it all in her heart, cried silent tears, and stood wordless beside her Son on the Cross.
I'm assuming it's available outside the circumstance of how I received it, and I'm sure you'll be able to find out if you visit the EWTN website.
Salvation, see post #166. Meant it for you, but inadvertently sent to myself.
Glad to see that you are familiar with Karl Keating's web site.
Nowhere in your provided scripture, including Revelation, does it say to PRAY TO THE DECEASED and that they will intercede for you.
They are not dead; they are alive!
Rom 6:3-4
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
Col 2:12
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
The saints stand before God. Catholics do not pray to the saints, they ask the saints to intercede on their behalf. Have you ever asked for a raise? Your supervisor can't grant the raise but they can 'intercede' for you.
"Hagios" was used in the NT many times, not just in Rev. and it literally means "holy". This word was used to describe those sealed and set apart by Christ. It was used for those both living(Eph 4:12) and dead (Matt 27:52).
This should expand your research.
Our words "holy" and "holiness" come from the Hebrew (qadosh and qodesh) from the Greek (hagios, hagiosyne) and the Latin (sanctitas, sacer, sanctus). Essentially holy means what is divine and pertains to God. It is His most intimate essence in which He radically transcends all that is created; totally Other. Holiness extends to whatever is in relationship with the divine; it includes the idea of separation and opposition to what is profane and common; it expresses the idea of belonging to or being possessed by God.
As Paul writes, in each individual, sanctification takes place through faith and baptism.
Paul continues ... sanctification through faith and baptism makes one belong to God.
Since you are already familiar with catholic.com, then you may find this site to be more detailed. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.
Just as protestants shake their heads at catholic beliefs and practices, catholics are equally surprised. The questions you and others raise, have been asked, debated and resolved over the span of 2000 years by theologians and church councils. The first christians addressed each and everyone of these questions. Your time and attention spent in research last night, has brought you to a more profound understanding of Scripture. If you have not yet done so, you may want to expand your research to include
As most of us realize, the Church began in the East. Our Lord lived and died and resurrected in the Holy Land. The Church spread from Jerusalem throughout the known world. Many people forget - or do not realize - that Christianity came from Judaism. As the church expanded beyond the realm of Judaism, it adapted itself to the people and cultures in which it took root. This cultural adaptation resulted in the 22 different rites of the Catholic Church today.
It is from Jewish roots that the church of Antioch sprung. In fact, the church of Antioch was founded by St. Peter and it was there that the terms "Christian" and "Catholic" were first used. The first Christians were Jews and entire communities came to accept Jesus as the Messiah. I attend an Eastern Catholic Church .... but that is a discussion for another time ;-D.
May our Lord guide you on your journey.
I will read these sites. FWIW to you and other Catholics, I am not against Catholics at all. I have some very dear Catholic friends and we worship together in my home. We intercede for each other daily. When it comes to the "fundamentals" of faith we basically agree. Typically, it is these "traditional" doctrines that we disagree on. We have some of the best times here over dinner and at cookouts debating, questioning and so on. But, we always depart company as friends and brethren united in Christ desiring to spread His love and gospel to all we meet. We respect each other as I respect each of you here. I believe that regardless of our differences that we love Christ and desire to serve Him and only Him.
I don't mean to denigrate when I say Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide are not found in Scripture. Nor am I trying to prove the truth of my belief by saying others' are untrue. I'm just trying to illustrate the point that just because something isn't explicitly in Scripture, doesn't mean it is automatically false.
Deuteronomy 18 (Douay-Rheims)
10 Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire: or that consulteth soothsayers, or observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard, 11 Nor charmer, nor any one that consulteth pythonic spirits, or fortune tellers, or that seeketh the truth from the dead.
The perpetual virginity of Mary, for instance, is not explicity proclaimed in Scripture (nor is it explicity or implicitly denied); It is, however, logically supported by Scripture.
I live in a house that I built, so I guess I can't disagree with your analogy. I'm perfectly happy in my house; No one else needs to explain how the loads on the circuit breaker are balanced; why the fireplace draws so well or how deep the well is. It's a lot like my faith.
By your own argument, heaven is empty save for the Father.
Here is the definition of the Hebrew word "call" (or da-rash) based upon the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Dictionary:
da-rash
BDB Definition:
1) to resort to, seek, seek with care, enquire, require
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to resort to, frequent (a place), (tread a place)
1a2) to consult, enquire of, seek
1a2a) of God
1a2b) of heathen gods, necromancers
1a3) to seek deity in prayer and worship
1a3a) God
1a3b) heathen deities
1a4) to seek (with a demand), demand, require
1a5) to investigate, enquire
1a6) to ask for, require, demand
1a7) to practice, study, follow, seek with application
1a8) to seek with care, care for
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to allow oneself to be enquired of, consulted (only of God)
1b2) to be sought, be sought out
1b3) to be required (of blood)
Part of Speech: verb
"Please read my post #135 above. Actually, the belief in praying for the dead and purgtory was universally held until the Reformation (see 2 Maccabees). At that time, some of the books used in the Catholic Canon were placed into the Protestant Apocrypha. It could be there is something in these texts that is the cause of much of this confusion between Catholics and Protestants. The Church will always stand by the initial canon."
It's never been acceptable. Even the Jews wince at that. 2 Maccabees isn't acceptable to Jews or Christians. The CAtholic church can stand by whatever it likes but it never was acceptable and never will be. It was also NOT in the initial canon.
I have not stated that in the least.
God tells us that Elijah, for instance, was taken there.
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