Posted on 12/09/2004 6:49:02 PM PST by Land of the Irish
Wishing nobody ill, I must ask why you believe that this crumbling and withering is reversible, with the seminaries purportedly being run by gays, ongoing revelations of abuse at the level of the parish priest, dioceses declaring bankruptcy and closing churchs, donations falling off precipitously......
I went to a Tridentine rite "independent chapel" down here in Florida a couple of weeks ago. The place is thriving - they don't have a huge congregation,but they've been able to buy land, build a church, commission art, and even have plans for a much larger church in the not too distant future. They have three Masses every Sunday, and all are well attended, even though they're in a somewhat remote place and are publicized by word of mouth.
They have been in conversation with the local bishop, who has had to settle a number of homosexual harassment suits and consequently is presiding over a nearly bankrupt diocese, and he is interested in having them come in. But the conditions are that he guarantees them nothing (that is, the Tridentine rite could be extinguished there the day after they accept the agreement), and they give him all their land and their church.
You also have to consider the reality that many traditionalists have to face every day. Our fervor is basically being seen as a funding source for whatever corrupt, gay-dominated diocese we are in; but of course, the bishop is usually too dumb to realize that by not guaranteeing us our liturgy, he is killing the goose that is busy laying those golden eggs.
Of course he can. I'm not saying that Brady can't nor shouldn't write an editorial in his own publication. I'm saying that what he writes needs to be carefully considered. For his sake and the sake of his organization.
Didn't I make that clear?
A newspaper editorial is not carte blanche to write whatever one's heart pleases. Libel laws take care of that.
Opponents such as you, huh? Fine, don't buy his goods.
Go back and read my first post. I'm not an opponent. Properly documented cases of clerical abuse are fine.
He should remain focused on this, in my opinion.
I'm more than happy to entertain the notion that homosexuals constitute a significant proportion of US bishops but it's going to take more than message board rhetoric from Brady to do it.
Very weak argument. Don't let the Faith get in the way of your modern lifestyle.
................Control?
The Vatican can't even ring its church bells worldwide 24/7
Its not in 'control' any longer.....SILENCED!
/sarcasm?
Livius, independant chapels are an interesting phenomenon. In the late 1980s, there were two such in the Dreadful Diocese of Richmond (Virginia), one in Richmond, and one in Chesapeake. They were served by travelling priests from out of town, some SSPX and some SSPV. When I assisted at Mass in the Chesapeake chapel (ca. 1988, then called "Our Lady of the Rosary") the attitude I encountered there could only be described as schismatic ... funny thing, though: a few years later, they both went legit. Nutty bishop Walter Sullivan (of all people) regularized their status with the diocese, and they are now served by Benedictine priests, of the same order that runs a few other orthodox and well ordered Parishes in the DDR. DDR has a new bishop ... we'll see what happens with him. DDR was not facing a huge pederasty settlement, and Uncle Wally was as much permissive as anything else, so the IC folks probably had good reason to trust him. Your case is different; I would note that their desire for regular status (if the Bp. can be trusted) speaks well of them.
This chapel is quite orthodox, has a picture of JPII on the wall, and would like to be regularized. We have a number of independent chapels in Florida because many priests have retired here and are available to serve them. In this case, the priest is younger, a fomer teaching brother who was ordained in Rome in a traditionalist order, which unfortunately fell apart over Novus Ordo conflicts. So he's been through this before, and I think has every reason to be suspicious.
It's very depressing to see how many good and willing Catholics there are out there who are really eager to be members of a parish, willing to contribute money, willing to spend their free time cleaning or even building their church - and then look at the reality of the situation, where many Catholics find themselves in churches where the bishops are busy protecting themselves or their clergy from things that never ever should have been done by anyone, clergy or lay, in the first place.
But of course the Pope's latest appointee, Wilton Gregory, who is replacing an orthodox bishop, doesn't seem to see a problem with this, so I guess maybe the Pope doesn't either. That's what's truly depressing, IMHO.
Sedevacantists are not outside the Church. Not believing JPII is a legitimate pope is not the same thing as denying the papacy itself. At one time there were three men claiming to be pope. Even great saints were confused. This also is a time of confusion. Nor are traditionalists who attend Masses outside the aegis of the local Ordinary outside the Church. Rome has already given its grudging permission for this.
Your mistake was to equate his remark about "the Vatican" with "the Church." The two are not the same. One is only a part of the other--and sometimes not even that.
Why indeed.
bump
What good are meaningless words when he's taken no action whatsover about the hordes of homosexuals who have infested our Church? Not only that, but he continues to appoint leftsts and homosexuals into the episcopal who only make things worse. This makes him complicit in the plight of the victims and the moral devolution of our church.
Actions matter, words don't. Words are just the noise you get when someone blows air through a hole in their face.
lol lol lol
Thank you for rising to the dfefense of the late Fr. Martin, and stating what is the truth about his view of the present pope and the situation of the church. I have tried to do the same in the past and have been verbally spat upon here by so-called Catholics.
The essense of Martin's view of JPII is that he knew that the organizational infrastructure of hte church was unsalvagable by human means when his pontificate began in 1978. Has he made mistakes - oh yes......some big blunders, on a human scale. Is he of a pseudo-liberal mentality?.....in a way yes. But bearing in mind his upbringing and his mentors in Poland, he is far from being an apostate. He has a very strong personal faith.
What we must realize - which Martin also tried to elucidate - is that JPII must deal with the hand of cards which he is dealt. We do not know 100% of what that consists of, nor do we know everything he knows. That alone should be enough to make the ultra trads realize that his hands are tied to a degree. And that all important aspect has only gotten worse with age and infirmity.
The important thing ot remember is that Christ did not choose Peter, or any of the other apostles.......much less countless saints throughout history....for their strengths, nor even for their faith.
He chose them for their weakness. That is the mystery.
"As far as I know, RCF does not promote schismatic parallel structures ..."
And what are they? Unless you mean that wonderful diversity that is Rome today. For example, Wojtyla's Ministry of Spiritual Humanism, or Ratzinger's great Ministry of Ambiguities, or even Kaspar's Ministry of Luther Revisited. And I have not started on the outer circles of Newchurch, notably the bishops' conferences with their own self-serving very autonomous structures. Only the simple-minded can now respect such a place.
I have the entire collection of interview tapes with Fr. Martin also. I periodically re-listen to portions because he has so much to say that each time a new item is metally highlighted for me.
Yes, in my case it was also Fr. Martin whose words & writings helped me to return to tradition.
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