Posted on 12/08/2004 11:08:38 PM PST by Mike10542
Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:
1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)
2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?
3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)
I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)
Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.
However, there exist some that claim they are "Monotheist Messianics". They view Jesus as a Messiah figure or as "the" Messiah but not as God.
Them's fightin' words! Well it sounds really bad anyway.
There was proto-orthodox binatarian belief before Constantine. He just called a counsel together (Nicene) and made it official.
OK then in your opinion how far back did this belief go then?
Depending upon what you mean by "early", I agree.
Trinitarian christians most certainly reject Judaism. You seem to assume and equate early Jewish "belief" to that of today's trinitarians.
Hi Iowegian! I guess enough time has passed since the Iowa-Wisconsin game that I can now talk with you. ;o)
Baha'u'llah was the founder of the Baha'i faith, which sees itself as the successor to Islam and all monotheistic religion.
Probably coincided with the beginning of the Apostle Paul's ministry. I'm not certain tho. You have it right, its my opinion.
From what I've read and understood, Muslims believe that of the 3 monotheistic religions, Islam is God's final revelation to humanity. Supposedly the Christian virgin birth is supported in the Koran.(haven't read it myself) And Jesus is recognized as a prophet of God.
Below is something I read in one of my books, that shows Mohammed took bits and pieces from Judaism also. Again, I've read somewhere(?)that Muslims consider the Koran to be God's final revelation to humanity. I think there is no denying that Mohammed drew from the other two faiths.
Mohammed (C. 571 - 631)
"In his early years, Mohammed had genuine affection for Jews and Judaism; he willingly conceded that his knowledge of God came from the Jews. Later, in the Koran, he cited Moses' name on more than one hundred occasions, and claimed that the Arabs were descendants of the "Patriarch Abraham, through his son Ismael. In the early years of his new religion, Mohammed even prayed in the direction of Jerusalem and observed the Jewish fast of Youm Kippur.
Unfortunately, this deep affection turned to violent fury when the Jews refuse to reciprocate Mohammed's goodwill by acknowledging him as a prophet of God. As was the case with Christianity, the Jews believed that what was true in Mohammed's message was not new, and what was new was not true. Further, Mohammed's knowledge of the Hebrew bible was spotty. In Sura (chapter) 28:38, he has Pharaoh (from Exodus) ask Haman (of the Book of Esther) to erect the Tower of Babel, an episode in the beginning of Genesis. In addition, The Jews - and for that matter, Christians - were presumably not impressed by Mohammed's instruction to beat disobedient wives (4:34).
Unfortunately for the Jews, Mohammed's angry response to their rejection of him was recorded in the Koran, the holy book of Islam. In it Mohammed attacked the Jews and Judaism in several ways. For one thing, he made Abraham a Muslim rather than a Jew: "Abraham was neither Jew nor Christian. [He] surrendered himself to Allah....Surely the men who are nearest to Allah are those who follow...this Prophet" (3:67-68) Mohammed accused the Jews of deliberately omitting prophecies about him from their Bible (9:32). Most remarkably, he accused the Jews of not being true monotheists, because he claimed they worshiped the prophet Ezra as a god (9:30). This accusation is particularly shocking to modern Jews, most of whom would be hard put to identify who Ezra was. "
Source: excerpted from "Jewish Literacy", by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, p.163
You're aware that not all 1st, 2nd and 3rd century "believers" accepted binatarian or trinitarian belief. There was alot of bloodshed over this issue.
#229 meant for you, also.
Yes that was a real smack down of a game. I expected a win, but nothing like that.
OK that's good do know, I have heard of the Bahai's, but am totally and invicibly ignorant about them.
Please refrain from taking my name in vain. :-)
Yes, I think there have always been believers in both views and there always will be. Thanks for the info.
Most Jews who join Jews for Jesus are nominal Jews in the first place. There are many who return to Judaism once they really begin to study. There are testimonials on the http://www.messiahtruth.com website (check out the guest book) and elsewhere. I recently came across this one, "Escape From Counterfeit Judaism" on another site:
http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/oneishashem/
Your last sentence was the payoff for sure. No, if you think I'm a scrupulous rule-keeper you radically misunderstand my approach to the faith.
Christians are called to conform themselves to Christ. Good works, including observing the moral law are the fruit of our faith, not its substance.
It's quite true that the Sabbath is still Saturday. and as Paul says, Christians are not under the Law. Law is out of place in the Church because her relationship with Christ is spousal. Husbands and wives in christian marriage don't serve each other becasue they're under legal compulsion, they do so willingly, out of love, because they've given themselves to each other. Keep in mind that Law does not appear in the OT until after the Fall. There was no law in the garden of eden, because law's a coping mechanism to govern relations between people who don't fully trust each other.
If the Catholic liturgy you encounter doesn't fire you up, you may be feeding yourself on junk liturgies. I'd advise you to search out a parish that gives due reverence to the liturgy in all of its richness. Ideally this means an indult parish where Latin and Gregorian chant are the norm, or else in an Anglican use parish or an Eastern Rite parish.
We had no icons in the OT (although the Lord does command the Israelites to create images, you should remember) because they might be turned into idols. The Incarnation shatters that objection since, as Paul says, Jesus is the image of God. The Virgin Mary, who was probably the greatest theologian there ever was, understood this. she didn't need an icon to pray before, because she had Jesus himself. As for sacred images in the early Church, they emerged very early. We have catacomb and sarcophagus images of the Good Shepherd, etc., dating to the third century or earlier. In all probability, earlier images were created but did not survive.
I think you are giving yourself too much to an understanding of the Church as a power structure, a human affair. This is a materialist approach that comletely rules out the possibility of the Holy Spirit's presence, and if you start with the idea that the Church's acts are explainable purely from human acts, you make it impossible for yourself to discern anything else.
I don't understand your difficulty about the church in Antioch. What's your point?
Your question applies to the most mystical and difficult to understand book of the New Testament, the book of Revelation. Basically, all good Jews will be saved, just like all true believers in Christ will be saved, and all evil people are in serious trouble. ;) All of the rest (not evil, but don't know God) will be judged by their actions during their lifetime.
Other than that, I take little away from Revelation. In one of the Gospels Jesus says that only God knows when those end times will come, that as the son, He doesn't know. Which tells me that Christians aren't supposed to spend any time worrying about it-- we're just supposed to get on with our work right know, following Christ, doing His will.
Does that help?
This is the problem: Messianic Judiasm is one of the fatest growing faiths in Jesus in Europe as well as Israel.
1st Century Jews were only Christians, they did not cease being Jews, Jesus's ministry was never to exclude Judiasm from the Jewish people it however was a ministry that Salvation would come through the Jews to the Gentiles.
Don't mis-interpet the truth of Jesus's Gospels that was highjacked by the early church.
If it wasn't for the 1st Jewish Christians this world for the most part would be even more heathenistic than it is now....Most messianic Jews I know are completly fufilled in there belief that they share a wonderful heritage in tradition, family and history in being a Jew as well as the complete knowledge they have that through there people the Messiah came to give hope and salvation to a world that was lost since Adam and Eve....
So where were all the Messianic Jews of the 2nd Century. I suspect they couldn't stomach the divinity that begain to take over the church and bailed out.
Again we are not suppose to stick are heads in the sand when it comes to Biblical Prophecy The Bible and ancient prophets have given us signs that when we see these thing happenings they are birth pains of what is to come before Jesus return.
No one is trying tp predict the day he will come back to earth although many do try, but we should be aware and many signs currently are showing Biblical Prophecy coming to life...
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