Posted on 12/08/2004 11:08:38 PM PST by Mike10542
Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:
1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)
2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?
3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)
I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)
Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.
Which is why, if he were here today, he would probably "freak out" if you were to share with him your definition of "perfected" Judaism.
And Jews think Christians are simply wrong. Doesn't mean we can't like each other and work together on matters of mutual interest.
The Carpenter returns How rude! I am sure if the carpenter does return you will be one of the first ones on your shaking knees asking Jesus to forgive you for denying him...Might be to late at that point have you ever entertained that thought?
I hope you're not equating Christianity with Islam in terms of legitimacy.
(the spell-checker is your friend, btw).
No Mike don't leave it alone..I will tell you this from fact when you accept Jesus into your heart and make a commitment to follow him he will NEVER let you down, every freeper will and any human being will but Jesus won't he will be your Best friend, your protector your father your life and lead you to eternal salvation even when you die...
Agreed Malakhi!
Although when we are both taken from this life, I see you as one of my neighbors somewhere in the Clouds...:)
As a Jew, I think Christianity and Islam are both in error. My point, though, was that Islam views itself as replacing Christianity in much the same way that Christianity views itself as replacing Judaism.
(the spell-checker is your friend, btw).
If I use it faithfully, can I be a pedant, too?
He is GOD the Great "I AM" Wonderful Counselor Prince of Peace, Saviour of the world.
This little baby born as a Jew to a humble family, who paid the ultimate penalty so we all may be reconciled with the father in eternal salvation peace and happiness
Does it get much better than that?
I don't think so......
no problem ;)
Christianity on the other hand has always seen itself as the fulfillment of everything promised the people of Israel, from the earliest days when virtually every Christian was also a Jew. I might add that thousands of 1st century Jews, living in a culture more thoroughly and comprehensively and authentically Jewish than anything conceivable today -- and minutely interested in their faith's messianic expectations -- having examined Christianity's claims for itself as the fulfillment of those expectations, judged the Church's message so compelling that they they willingly turned their lives upside down to become fulfilled Jews finally in full posession of the inheritance promised them. Can you imagine any Jews alive today who'd do the same?
I realise you view Christianity as an aberration, but you can't reasonably claim that it didn't arise organically from Jewish people and their traditions of faith.
(It's OK being a pedant, btw, so long as you have something of substance to say.)
Henri de Lubac considered Islam a Christian heresy. Although Mohammud got much wrong about Judaism and Christianity, it is inarguable that he was influenced by contact with Jews and Christians living in Arabia (and also, possibly, by the Mandaean sect).
So did Hilaire Belloc, but the fact is you can't be a heretic wrt a group you've never belonged to. Am I a Jewish heretic? Mohammed and his followers had some remote and fleeting exposure to Christianity, but they weren't claiming to be acting as Christians. They were proposing a final prophecy, but as alien proselytisers. If you appear in Arabia waving a book dictated to you by an angel or some such, and proclaiming a new religion that replaces Islam, does that make you an Islamic heretic? No, it makes you a nutjob.
We never say in church, "Hear, O Israel the Lord thy God is one" as Jesus did. I was moved when I attended a Jewish funeral and the congregation said those words. It is read as part of the scripture readings though.
Your answer is a good one, but I'm still not quite right in my heart about it. The catechism requires keeping of the commandments, all of them, only now according to Catholic interpretations and exceptions since icons and images were allowed since about the sixth century. The Virgin Mary herself would never have prayed before a statue or icon.
Catholics are required to believe that Mary's conception was immaculate, yet some church fathers claimed she at least sinned venially once or twice. Mary's perpetual virginity is still something I have mental reservations about. I've read the sides fighting to the point of nausea, but it still isn't 100% convincing, and regardless, the early Christians were not required to believe that.
All the bickering over the changes in the mass seem kind of silly to me since the first mass was probably said in Aramaic and the early masses were probably much different, simpler affairs than anything we know today.
There are other minor points that one has to consider if one wants to be completely honest and not go along just because the church says so. Some of the things the church says so today were not said so centuries ago. Some of those things are lost to history, but some can be dug out if you have the resources to seek out the ancient documents. Even then, the church fathers didn't always agree on everything. The winners won out and the others were silent.
I have read discusions about the church joining with the state politically in both east and west which made it very powerful. I often wonder if Christianity would have survived or in what form it would be if it had survived, if it had not become intertwined with politics.
Just things most people don't ask questions about. And there's little sense in asking them because tradition with the small t is so ingrained in people. The early Christians would probably be shocked to walk into a modern version of Christianity, even those who trace back to the beginning.
Then there became the matter that St. Peter founded two churches. From scripture we know that he was in charge of the church at Antioch which still exists today. What is one to do with that little factoid?
What is really sad is that you can't have an honest discussion about any of this because you are being disloyal to your particular brand of Christianity to even question certain things.
So all I can do is try to do the best I can do. I recently returned to church. It was hard on Immaculate Conception day. Among other things we were told we had to be like Mary or we couldn't go to heaven. Nobody could possibly be that holy. The only way the rest of us can be holy enough to get to heaven is to repent of our sins and confess them so we can approach the communion table with clean hands and a clean heart.
I just hope God isn't as hard on us as some of our fellow Christians are when we have reservations and questions about certain things. When push comes to shove, I doubt any two Christians of any stripe have the exact same understanding about every point of doctrine.
Funny you mentioned the catechism. There are some things that aren't even in there and some of it isn't very clear. My daughter wanted to borrow mine and I told her (for now) if she does a serious sin, I'll let her know about it. It's like reading a medical manual for some people. You start imagining you have all those diseases.
For people like that it is is better to just trust in God to save us for our faith and doing the best we can. Sometimes I think it's not so much about how much we know as how we treat other people. That's what it boils down to for me. Belief in certain basics, trying to avoid serious sin, and treating other people as Jesus would want us to treat them.
The guy who climbed the sycamore tree to see Jesus was a serious sinner, probably more than most, and Jesus chose to invite him to his home that evening. I would like to think that Jesus would come to my home, serious sinner that I am. I can tell you one thing for sure. That man's wife was probably a better housekeeper than me. I don't know if Jesus would want to come to my house or not, but I have tried really hard to make it better lately and there are just too many things that need fixing than I am ever going to deal with. Funny though. Jesus was a carpenter, and he would have known how to fix them. And he would have done it at a price I could afford and in a manner that wouldn't need to be redone 10 years later.
My kitchen cupboards fell off the wall. They are now in the dining room. A Christian man who did the job at a price I could afford didn't hit all the studs with the bolts. The rest of it wasn't his fault. The studs were rotted because the roof had leaked for so many years and we didn't know the whole wall needs to be replaced. I just paid $3000 to have a new roof put on and now the ice still backs up in that one spot and leaks into my kitchen. So there's no sense in fixing the kitchen wall until I get another roof person up here and have that redone.
So that's how it is for some people. I have different spiritual priorities now. I just try to be kinder to people as best I can. I took a lady to the hospital for surgery today. My son doesn't even want to give her a ride home, and he is capable of great kindnesses to certain people. Whatsoever we do to the least of his people, we do unto Him. Today I took Jesus to the hospital for double hernia surgery because the lady's daughter had to work and she was going to take the bus. I would feel terrible if no one would drive me to the hospital for surgery and I had to take the bus.
Being nice to people could be our salvation. We don't have to make a career of it. Just help out here and there when someone in need crosses our path.
That's what my version of Christianity is really about. Helping people some people don't want to mess with when they cross our path. We don't have to do it every day.
Some people are so nice they devote their whole lives to helping the less fortunate. If they are paid for it, it doesn't seem as if it would count for as much, but some people do it as volunteers.
That's my homily for today. Sorry I put you through that. Hope it didn't get you upset. I think you are one who is very careful to follow all the rules and get religion as far as churchgoing and believing, genuflecting, etc., is concerned just right.
Does JFJ believe in the divinity of Yeshua, don't they? Just wondering.
No it doesn't, as skellmeyer aptly explained (with biblical references). The Protestant definition of a "church" was unknown to the Apostles, the Church Fathers, and all their successors for 1,500 years. It was created out of necessity. Priests have no ecclesiastical authority without a bishop (Apostolic successor), and to the best of my knowledge not a single bishop joined Martin Luther in his "reformation" of the Church.
Hey Iowegian. Long time. How ya doin? Yes they believe in divinity.
Only if your mother was Jewish. One of the differences between Judaism on the one hand, and Christianity and Islam on the other, is that most Jews are Jews by birth.
If you appear in Arabia waving a book dictated to you by an angel or some such, and proclaiming a new religion that replaces Islam, does that make you an Islamic heretic?
That makes you Baha'u'llah.
Only if your mother was Jewish.
Come to think of it, you would, in that case, technically be an "apostate".
Christianity did not replace Judaism. Early Christians did not reject Judaism.
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