The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady December 8

Tradition in Action | Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

[pascendi]

"That may be Pio's position, but it's not the position that the Church takes."

Wrong. Pio's position is the Church's infallible doctrine.

"God judges you on what you willfully do that is wrong, and if your Protestantism is an honest effort to serve him, heaven is not closed to you."

Only if they enter the Church before death. If you say otherwise, then you would be speaking heresy.

[pascendi]

"I understand the RCC's position that salvation is confined to the RCC. If that is true, you're "good to go". Myself and fellow Prots, then, are doomed to hell. May I commend you on an excellent job of trying to bring us back into the fold!"

Let me grab my calculator. Obstinate denial of divinely revealed doctrines + bein' a real affable dood = salvation?

[pascendi]

Here's what's going to happen.

Armydoc is going put on this humble approach, playing it slick and nice and well meaning and all. But he's going to come into a Catholic subject thread, alright, and place it off center.

Catholics, naturally defensive of their Mother, take umbrage at this. This is opportunity to tell us all how uncharitable we are. Never mind that real charity, first and foremost, is upholding the Catholic truth. Especially truths touching upon the very epicenter of salvation.

At this point it is no longer a theological or spiritual topic. It's an emotional, subjective and personal one.

So now Campion is going to yield some ground on doctrine, in order to make armydoc feel a little more comfortable. Of course, no matter how accommodating Campion is to armydoc, armydoc wasn't in the market for Catholic doctrine in the first place.

So the net result for Campion will be that he loses ground on immutable principle.

The net result for armydoc is that he has, in classic liberal style, moved to portray the Thesis, that is, Catholic doctrine (two doctrines total, this thread), as something unreasonable and undesirable.

Alright. One doctrine questioned, another doctrine compromised, and we are well on our way to synthesizing a false centrism in the mind of the Watchers.

By all means, continue. This should be interesting.

It's still December 8th, though.

[Land of the Irish]

The Epistle of the Mass of the Catholic Church for the Feast Day of the Immaculate Conception:

Proverbs 8;22-35

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. 23 I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. 24 The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: 25 The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

26 He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: 28 When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: 29 When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; 30 I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

31 Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men. 32 Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, and that watcheth daily at my gates, and waiteth at the posts of my doors. 35 He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord:

[Land of the Irish]

"For Jesus to be born without sin didn't require a sinless mother." aimhigh

"I agree, but we never said otherwise." Campion

Aimhigh did just such a thing in post #3:

If she was conceived without sin, then her parents must have also been born without sin.

[Pio]

"That may be Pio's position, but it's not the position that the Church takes."

Read the Catechism...new or old..I'm not making this stuff up, this is not my position. (n.b. the new catechism makes provisions for people who have never heard of Jesus Christ.)

Your position is entirely protestant, it has no basis in Christian Doctrine. The concept of salvation you put forth is pure heresy, it is Universalism.

Get thee to a Unitarian Church

[Pio]

"I understand the RCC's position that salvation is confined to the RCC."

Being inside the Church is necessary but not sufficient. Get it? No one can be sure of their salvation while they're still breathing. Only the born-agains seem to express their utmost confidence in their personal salvation. Catholics work it out, they pray, fear God, worship Jesus, obey the Commandments, repent when they sin and then pray some more.

There are provisions made for people who have never heard of Jesus Christ.

There are ways to challenge Christians about their ideas. We invented the University. You won't meet a bunch of people more willing to kick around ideas. (Hence our numerical domination of freepnet.) Can you open your mind to the concept that defaming Marian devotion (which has been a Christian practice that long predates any "denomination") as Satanic can rile people?

Again, I say, denouncing Mary (and what she tells us to do) as Satanic will get you nowhere with Christians nor with Christ.