Posted on 12/07/2004 5:48:23 PM PST by Land of the Irish
Someone's imagination gone wild. This is Satan's method for getting our eye's off Jesus - glorify someone else.
The excuse for this doctrine is that she had to be without in order to give birth to a son without sin. If she was conceived without sin, then her parents must have also been born without sin. How many generations back shall we go?
In Luke 1:46, we read,
"And Mary said:
My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,.."
If she was without sin, she wouldn't need a savior.
You're obviously not Catholic.
Move along.
Our Lady leads us to her Son. She tells us to "Do whatever He says". She is the gate of Heaven that leads us to Christ. "To Him through Her." And yes, she was a creature who enjoyed the salvation of God, who is not bound by time and applied the merits of Christ's passion and death to preserve Our Lady from all stain of original sin from the moment of her conception.
aimhigh- hitlow
This is a Catholic section. I don't think you should comment on it.
Right. Her salvation, like her freedom from sin, was prefigured by God even before Christ's birth, death and resurrection.
Applying you logic in reverse, if Mary was conceived with sin, then her Son, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was also conceived with sin.
I've been studying my Catechism, and I am amazed at the logic, precision and integration of it all, and I've just begun to scratch the surface.
Robert Graves, of literary fame said that while he was not a Catholic himself, he viewed the Faith as most logical, and fully fleshed out. And Graves had an intellect to be reckoned with.
Well how nice of you to come onto a Catholic thread and bash Catholic doctrine.
Why is it I never see you on SJackson or Allouette's Jewish threads bashing Jews?
Catholics are fair game, I guess.
What about the Angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary in Luke:
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you."
This is the mystery of Mary to which our whole country, the United States of America, was dedicated at the Sixth Provincial Council of Baltimore in 1846. The meaning of the mystery is that from the first instant of her conception in the womb of Anna, her mother, Mary was without original sin. Nothing of the guilt which Adam bestowed on the whole human race, because of his sin in the Garden of Paradise, was allowed to touch the perfect soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary. God created the soul of Mary in sheer holiness, full of every grace he could bestow on her. In our own day, which is rightly called the age of Mary, in the year 1854, on December 8, the courageous and holy Pope Pius IX, defined the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary as a dogma of the Catholic Faith. Anyone who does not believe in this dogma, Our Lady, in 1858, in one of her eighteen apparitions to Saint Marie Bernadette of Lourdes, a little fourteen year old girl who lived in southern France, said, by way of innocently emphasizing the papal definition of Pius IX and its meaning, not I was immaculately conceived but I AM the Immaculate Conception. This she said on the feast of the Annunciation, March 25. Mary let us know thereby that she was the very notion of this grace in the mind of God from all eternity. Mary is Gods love, His dove, His beautiful one.
Thanks for posting this article, LOTI! I appreciate it. Thanks to Stubborn and Salvation for their comments, you two sum it up nicely and made my morning!
Ave Maria.
The problem with your logic is that it ignores the scriptures, which tell us that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.
I humbly submit this for consideration for all Catholics on today, DEC. 8th, when the Blessed Mother appeared to Sr. Pierina in Montichiari, Italy eleven times and has asked for an HOUR OF GRACE - noon to 1 pm - of every year. Please join me in praying for our country. I've done this hour for many years and it is indeed quite powerful. (Don't forget to print this in order to have handy for the years to come.) Thanks.
Acknowledgements: A very special Thank You to the Felician Sisters in general who printed this story in their "Ave Maria" magazine and who so graciously translated this story from Polish into English in order to comply with the request of the Blessed Virgin Mary that this message be sent throughout the world.
(For additional info on this subject: http://www.marypages.com/MontichiariEng.htm)
The Hour of Grace
December 8th from Noon to 1pm
My wish is that every year on the 8th of December, at noon, an "Hour of Grace" will be installed. Many spiritual graces and physical blessings will be received by those who pray UNDISTURBED during this hour. "THE MOST HARD-HEARTED SINNERS WILL BE TOUCHED BY THE GRACE OF GOD."
During the period of November 24, 1946 to December 8, 1947, the Blessed Mother appeared to Sr. Pierina in a little church in Montichiari, Italy, eleven times. On the first appearance, the Blessed Mother told Sr. Pierina she wanted to be known as the "Mystical Rosa", and that an hour of grace should be kept at noon on December 8th in all the Catholic churches of the world. The Blessed Mother wanted this to be known through all of Italy and the entire world.
It was November 16, 1947 when Sr. Pierina was finishing her thanksgiving after Holy Communion, when she saw a great light. She then saw a vision of the Blessed Mother as the "Mystical Rose".
Sister was so deeply moved by the stunning beauty of our Lady that she began talking to her. All of a sudden a gentle force made her kneel down in front of Our Lady. The Blessed Mother spoke these words: "My son is so greatly offended by the sins of impurity. He is already planning to send a deluge upon the people, for their destruction, but I have asked Him to show mercy and not send destruction. So that is why I have appeared, to ask for penance and atonement for the sins of impurity." Then the Blessed Mother asked for an act of humility by Sr. Pierina. She asked her to make the sign of the cross with her tongue on each of the four stones in the sanctuary. "This shall be a reminder to the people that I have appeared here, and do not have the people step on those stones."
The Blessed Mother then stepped on each of the stones so that her gown touched all four stones. On November 22nd, Sr. Pierina felt the overwhelming urge to go to church at 4:00 a.m. The Mother Superior, four sisters and a group of friends accompanied her. They were all saying the Rosary when the Blessed Mother appeared as before. She instructed Sr. Pierina to make the sign of the cross on the stones and fence them off so that no one would step on them.
Again, Our Lady asked for penance. She said: "Penance is nothing more than accepting all our crosses daily willingly. No matter how small, accept them with love." At this time she told Sr. Pierina to come again on December 8th at noon. "This will be my Hour of Grace." The sister asked how she was to prepare for this Hour of Grace. To which the Blessed Mother said, "With prayers and penance. Pray the 51st Psalm with outstretched arms three times. During the Hour of Grace, many spiritual graces will be granted. THE MOST HARD-HEARTED SINNERS WILL BE TOUCHED BY THE GRACE OF GOD."
THE BLESSED VIRGIN PROMISED THAT WHATEVER A PERSON ASKED HER FOR DURING THIS HOUR OF GRACE (EVEN IN IMPOSSIBLE CASES) WOULD BE GRANTED TO THEM, IF IT WAS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WILL OF THE ETERNAL FATHER.
It was December 7th when Sr. Pierina felt the urge to go to church. This time she was accompanied by the priest and the Mother Superior. The Blessed Mother appeared with a young boy and girl dressed in beautiful white clothing. Sister was sure these little ones were angels because they were so beautiful.
The Blessed Mother said: "Tomorrow I will show you My Immaculate Heart which is so little known among the people." She asked people to pray for Russia. "There are so many people being held prisoners which their families know nothing of, because they have been gone for so many years. Pray for the conversion of Russia. The suffering of the soldiers and their sacrifices and martyrdom will bring peace to Italy. The little children are Francisco and Jacinta. I am giving them to you as your companions. You will have much to suffer for my sake. I want simplicity and goodness from you, as of these little children." The Blessed Mother then blessed Sr. Pierina, the priest and all those who were gathered there.
On the morning of December 8th, people began arriving at the little church at 8:00 a.m. from neighboring towns. By noon, some 10,000 people had gathered to see the Blessed Mother, many of whom had to stand outside because the church did not have enough room for the large crowd.
Sr. Pierina was accompanied to church by her mother and brothers, the Mother Superior, and the Chief of Police from Montichiari. Sister was reciting the Rosary with the crowd in the middle of the Church. Suddenly, a brilliant white light appeared from the ceiling. Stairs were coming from the light down to the floor of the church, about fifteen feet in length. The staircase was beautifully decorated with red, white and yellow roses. The Blessed Virgin appeared so radiant, dressed in white, with her hands folded. She was standing on a splendid carpet at the top of the stairs, made of the red, white and yellow roses.
In the most gentle and loving voice, our Lady smiled and began to speak, "I am the Immaculate Conception, the Mother of all graces, and the Mother of my Beloved Son, JESUS. I want to be known as the Mystical Rose. My wish is that every year on the 8th of December, at noon, an "Hour of Grace" will be installed. Many spiritual graces and physical blessings will be received by those who pray UNDISTURBED during this hour.
Then slowly, she began to descend the staircase, gracefully scattering roses as she went along until she reached midway of the staircase. Here again the Blessed Mother spoke, "I am very happy to see this great demonstration of faith."
Sr. Pierina asked for many of the sinners to be forgiven. The Blessed Mother replied: "My Divine Son will show His greatest Mercies as much as the people will pray for them. I want this to be known and told to Pope Pius XII. Tell him I want him to install the "Hour of Grace" throughout the whole world, and even those who are not able to go to church during this hour will receive the same graces by praying during this time in their homes at noon time."
She also asked that a Statue be made and placed on the spot where she stood. This should be called the "Rosa Mystica", and be carried in a procession through the town, at which time many graces will be given and cures will take place. Then the statue is to be returned to the church.
Our Lady prayed for the sick, some were cured, others not. Many men, women and children were cured at that very instant. A 26 year old woman who could not say a word for nine months, suddenly began shouting "I see Her, I see the Blessed Virgin." An 18 year old girl with ulcers was instantly cured. A 5 year old boy who had been paralized was told by the Blessed Mother, "Come to Me, you will be walking now." He was placed on the blessed stones and was able to walk.
There were three others who were very sick and were immediately cured. But of course, the greatest miracles taking place were those of the spiritual blessings shed upon the people gathered in the church.
The Blessed Mother said, "This is the last time I will appear here. Pray, weep and do penance on these stones, and you will receive the care of my "Motherly Heart". She then left the little church, but because of the unending love of our Heavenly Mother, she has given us the "Hour of Grace" to be spread throughout the entire world. She has given us all the opportunity to demonstrate our love and trust to her and to help make reparation for the grievous sins offending her Beloved Son, our Lord JESUS CHRIST.
REQUEST OF THE BLESSED MOTHER FOR THE HOUR OF GRACE
1. Day and time of the Hour of Grace: December 8th, Feast of the Immaculate Conception, to be started at 12 noon and continuing until 1:00 p.m. for one full hour of prayer.
2. During this hour, the person making the "Hour of Grace" either at home or at Church must put away all distractions (do not answer the telephones, or answer any doors, or do anything but totally concentrate on your union with God during this special Hour of Grace.
3. Begin the Hour of Grace by praying three times the 51st Psalm with out- stretched arms. (Psalm 51 is printed below)
4. The rest of the Hour of Grace may be spent in silent communication with God meditating upon the Passion of Jesus, saying the Holy Rosary, praising God in your own way, or by using favorite prayers, singing hymns, meditating upon other psalms, etc.
Please copy and distribute this message. Remember to pray for your country during this hour. The Blessed Virgin has requested that her important message be sent throughout the entire world. Please help her Mission well...that all souls be drawn to GOD and that JESUS will be loved in every heart. This is the perpetual song of her heart. Let it also be ours.
PSALM 51
1. Have mercy on me, O God, in your faithful love, in your great tenderness wipe away my offences;
2. wash me thoroughly from my guilt, purify me from my sin.
3. For I am well aware of my offences, my sin is constantly in mind.
4. Against you, you alone, I have sinned, I have done what you see to be wrong, that you may show your saving justice when you pass sentence, and your victory may appear when you give judgement,
5. remember, I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception.
6. But you delight in sincerity of heart, and in secret you teach me wisdom.
7. Purify me with hyssop till I am clean, wash me till I am whiter than snow.
8. Let me hear the sound of joy and gladness, and the bones you have crushed will dance.
9. Turn away your face from my sins, and wipe away all my guilt.
10. God, create in me a clean heart, renew within me a resolute spirit,
11. do not thrust me away from your presence, do not take away from me your spirit of holiness.
12. Give me back the joy of your salvation, sustain in me a generous spirit.
13. I shall teach the wicked your paths, and sinners will return to you.
14. Deliver me from bloodshed, God, God of my salvation, and my tongue will acclaim your saving justice.
15. Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will speak out your praise.
16. Sacrifice gives you no pleasure, burnt offering you do not desire.
17. Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit, a broken, contrite heart you never scorn.
18. In your graciousness do good to Zion, rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
19. Then you will delight in upright sacrifices, --burnt offerings and whole oblations -- and young bulls will be offered on your altar.
Third Order Carmelites
P. O. Box 845
Marshfield, Wisconsin 54449
USA
Yes, but if you believe in the hypostatic union (just a fancy way of saying that Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time), and you believe the Scriptural geneology that is included in the Gospels, then you should believe that Jesus "took His flesh" of the Virgin Mary. In a more "scientific" way, Mary's ova, which only had half the chromosones needed for a new human life, was "made complete," through the power of the Holy Ghost, and at that moment, Jesus was conceived. If you believe that Mary was "just a vessel," then you are basically saying that Jesus wasn't a true member of God's Chosen People, because you need to be truly descended from a Jewish mother to be Jewish! The Messiah had to be born from the descendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, otherwise the Scripture passage that says "There shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse... and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him" (Isaiah 11), along with many other prophecies concerning the Messiah, would be lying.
In conclusion, if the Messiah needed to be truly descended from a Jewish mother to be Jewish, and this Jewish mother had the stain of original sin upon her (since she would be descended of Adam), then that stain would have to be passed on to Jesus. There's no escaping that if you believe He is true Man, and is descended of Abraham. The Father, in His great Wisdom and sense, knew what needed to be done in order for His Son to be born. That is why Mary had to preserved from original sin.
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