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I realize that naysayers are very disinclined to deal well with facts. But I would hope that if they have the integrity to take Panin up on his challenge, THAT THEY WOULD COUNT THE NUMBER OF TIMES PER WEEK THAT THEY ATTEMPT IT--and report back to us in an ongoing update.

Blessings,

1 posted on 11/28/2004 4:42:56 PM PST by Quix
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To: Quix

don't need it.


2 posted on 11/28/2004 4:44:20 PM PST by Mercat (Thank you freepers.)
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To: JustPiper; MamaDearest; drymans wife; Labyrinthos; nwctwx; 1john2 3and4; BriarBey; Indie; ...

I think you would find this post quite interesting.

You may even know others worth pinging.

Blessings,


3 posted on 11/28/2004 4:46:04 PM PST by Quix (5having a form of godliness but denying its power. I TIM 3:5)
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To: Quix
"Every few years Christians become infatuated with some new and esoteric trend. And, if you have missed the hoopla in one of the past movements, just wait a few years and something new will surely surface. For example, in the late 1970s, Roland Buck and other Charismatic leaders captivated a segment of the Church with stories of angelic visitations. This cherubic hype lasted a few years and then diminished.

"A decade later, it again revived not only within “Christian” camps (through the fables of such celebrities as Benny Hinn), but also took prominence outside the Church. In 1993, both Time and Newsweek magazines featured cover stories on the “new age” of angels. Television series and specials and Hollywood movies all championed the angelic theme. Many Christian booksellers capitalized on the craze by devoting an entire section in their stores to publications, jewelry, calendars, and other items that advanced the subject of angels."
...
"One of the latest fads in Bible numerology comes to us through the aid of modern technology, as it took the computer to get it going. It is a pursuit of clandestine Bible prophecy called equidistant letter sequence or ELS. It has been popularized by Michael Drosnin’s best-selling book, The Bible Code. Drosnin’s book, published by Simon and Schuster in 1997, has found its way onto the (nonfiction) best-seller list of the New York Times. The book’s success has also afforded Drosnin guest appearances on popular television broadcasts such as Oprah. Other notables within Christian circles, including Paul Crouch, Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey, have also jumped on the ELS bandwagon."

THE BIBLE CODE: PROPHETIC INSIGHT OR FERTILE IMAGINATION?

14 posted on 11/28/2004 5:27:32 PM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix; Mercat; connectthedots; ExSoldier; ladyinred; rintense
"Did God place a secret code in the Old Testament? Did He know humans would someday invent the computer and discover this code? That's what some people think. Is that how God works?"
...
"I don't question Grant Jeffrey's commitment to Christianity, even though his livelihood depends on popularizing a steady stream of poorly documented and highly questionable "Astonishing Biblical Discoveries." However, he is gullible, he's no scholar, and he is unwittingly leading many of his readers into the arms of a supernatural counterfeit of God and His ways."

Does the Bible Code Bear the Signature of God?

16 posted on 11/28/2004 5:36:10 PM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix

Jesus said we need to have faith like little children, not degrees in cryptology.


18 posted on 11/28/2004 5:38:32 PM PST by Rebelbase (Who is General Chat and why does he/she have their own forum?)
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To: Quix
scratching my head. Unless actual source documents are used, what does this prove ?
The article is unclear what the original source documents used were. I doubt if the the original old\new testament documents were used.

1456 A.D. Gutenberg produced the first printed Bible in Latin.

1514 A.D. The Greek New Testament was printed for the first time by Erasmus. He based his Greek New Testament from only five Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dated only as for back as the twelfth century. With minor revisions, Erasmus' Greek New Testament came to be know as the Textus Receptus or the "received texts."

1522 A. D. Polyglot Bible was published. The Old Testament was in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Latin and the New Testament in Latin and Greek. Erasmus used the Polyglot to revise later editions of his New Testament. Tyndale made use of the Polyglot in his translation on the Old Testament into English which he did not complete because he was martyred in 1534.

1611 A.D. The King James Version into English from the original Hebrew and Greek. The King James translators of the New Testament used the Textus Receptus as the basis for their translations.

who's version of the bible was used ? words & phrases were translated differently among different versions.
It would seem that would mess up the numerology.

sorry...I can't suspend disbelief that much.
19 posted on 11/28/2004 5:40:11 PM PST by stylin19a (Marines - filling up Iraq's Tomb of the Unknown Soldier)
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To: Quix

You can't put Him in a box, or limit what He does to delight His people, and confound His enemies. This is "drink the wine of astonishment" stuff. Thanks Quix.


20 posted on 11/28/2004 5:40:28 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.)
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To: Quix

thanks, that is really interesting.


29 posted on 11/28/2004 5:57:55 PM PST by fabian
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To: Quix

POSIT: Goedel was a moron.
I: If ALL equations must contain a premise, SOMEONE must have written it.
II: ALL unprovable premices contain unexplainable symmetry, harmony and beauty, unexplainable in human terminology.
III: Everything we, at any given moment, cannot explain, ... is always greater than the complete sum of human knowledge (per Goedel's definition).
ENDIT: Any religion not based on experience is false.
POSTENDIT: Whereas, the resurrection of Jesus, of Nazareth, is the best-witnessed event of antiquity,

Jesus is God.


54 posted on 11/28/2004 7:14:57 PM PST by derheimwill (sorry, no tagline yet)
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To: Quix

Thanks Quix will have to get ith you tomorrow. I stll have family here. I had seen this before and found it very intersting. There is much more to it thm just what you have posted.

Thanks again for the ping.


88 posted on 11/29/2004 12:02:18 AM PST by DAVEY CROCKETT (Character exalts Liberty and Freedom, Righteous exalts a Nation.)
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To: Quix
The number "seven" permeates the totality of Scripture because the number speaks of God's divine perfection and perfect order.

*Six is also a number of perfection.

City of God St. Augustine. Book X1, Chap. 30

Chapter 30.

-Of the Perfection of the Number Six, Which is the First of the Numbers Which is Composed of Its Aliquot Parts.

These works are recorded to have been completed in six days (the same day being six times repeated), because six is a perfect number,-not because God required a protracted time, as if He could not at once create all things, which then should mark the course of time by the movements proper to them, but because the perfection of the works was signified by the number six. For the number six is the first which is made up of its own57 parts, i.e., of its sixth, third, and half, which are respectively one, two, and three, and which make a total of six. In this way of looking at a number, those are said to be its parts which exactly divide it, as a half, a third, a fourth, or a fraction with any denominator,e.g., four is a part of nine, but not therefore an aliquot part; but one is, for it is the ninth part; and three is, for it is the third. Yet these two parts, the ninth and the third, or one and three, are far from making its whole sum of nine. So again, in the number ten, four is a part, yet does not divide it; but one is an aliquot part, for it is a tenth; so it has a fifth, which is two; and a half, which is five. But these three parts, a tenth, a fifth, and a half, or one, two, and five, added together, do not make ten, but eight. Of the number twelve, again, the parts added together exceed the whole; for it has a twelfth, that is, one; a sixth, or two; a fourth, which is three; a third, which is four; and a half, which is six. But one, two, three, four, and six make up, not twelve, but more, viz., sixteen. So much I have thought fit to state for the sake of illustrating the perfection of the number six, which is, as I said, the first which is exactly made up of its own parts added together; and in this number of days God finished His work.58 And, therefore, we must not despise the science of numbers, which, in many passages of holy Scripture, is found to be of eminent service to the careful interpreter.59 Neither has it been without reason numbered among God's praises, "Thou hast ordered all things in number, and measure, and weight."60

94 posted on 11/29/2004 7:02:30 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: Quix

There is no question that numerology plays a large part in religion. Christians may be late to the game, but Jewish and Islamic scholars have been at the game for a while. Some passages in the OT are obvious numerical constructions and references to numbers are frequent. It is another level of communication. Proof of something? Nah.


112 posted on 11/29/2004 9:43:59 AM PST by RightWhale (Destroy the dark; restore the light)
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To: Quix

I think that you should ping Louis Farrakan so he can include this numbers game in his next on-stage ramblings!


122 posted on 11/29/2004 10:12:24 AM PST by aShepard
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To: Quix; Starwind; Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; xzins
Ivan Panin was one of the most remarkable Christians to live in this century.

"I first heard of codes and patterns to be found in the Bible about thirty years ago when a young brother handed me a booklet called The Wonderful Numberer. The booklet was a summary of the work of Ivan Panin, who had concluded that what he had found in the Bible proved that it was Divinely inspired. Long before the computer made finding complex patterns of letters routine, Panin searched the Scriptures looking for patterns of sevens.

"Ivan Panin had emigrated to the US in 1882 from Russia. In 1890 he claimed to have made a startling Biblical discovery. It was not about hidden Bible messages; rather it was about numerical patterns that he said permeated all the inspired Scripture but not other literature. Partin publicized his discoveries in the New York Sun (19 Nov. 1899) in a letter to the editor entitled, "The Inspiration of the Scriptures Scientifically Demonstrated".

"The booklet The Wonderful Numberer claimed that Dr Panin was a brilliant mathematician who had spent the greater part of his life compiling mathematical concordances and writing many papers on the subject. His findings have gained some acceptance in religious circles." (Some Problems With Bible Codes)

141 posted on 11/29/2004 1:27:41 PM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix

Not sure if I count as a "rabid naysayer", but when it comes down to it, the "mathematical signature of God" even if true is extremely unimportant.


188 posted on 12/01/2004 12:50:12 AM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: Quix

Speaking as someone who believes in the inerrant divine inspiration of the Bible, I think this analysis is a load of crap.


191 posted on 12/01/2004 7:09:27 AM PST by Sloth ("Rather is TV's real-life Ted Baxter, without Baxter's quiet dignity." -- Ann Coulter)
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To: All; Quix
Crap...

I thought it was Soda.

239 posted on 12/01/2004 1:23:37 PM PST by johnny7 (“And where do 'youz get off 'callin me Nick?!” -Sheldon Leonard)
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To: Quix
I want to read this later
285 posted on 12/02/2004 8:37:39 AM PST by GreenAccord
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To: Quix
"My friend of the world, whoso you are: Either Jesus Christ is mistaken or you are.

Wrong. A wonderful example of a false dichotomy.

The answer that neither might be is only evading the issue, not settling it.

Whoever wrote that sentence clearly doesn't understand simple English. It is not evading anything to suggest that the correct answer lies outside the two possibilities already mentioned.

But the ages have decided that Jesus Christ was not mistaken.

No, they haven't, but one is certainly free to think otherwise.

It is for you to decide whether you shall continue to be."

Yawn. The black crow flies at midnight.

303 posted on 12/03/2004 2:12:46 PM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: Quix
If I know anything about the rabid naysayers on FR, at least some of the RELIGIOUS [vs spiritual] types will wail and rant that ANYTHING having to do with numbers and The Bible has to be crossing the line into dealing with Biblically forbidden NUMEROLOGY.

I'm not a naysayer, but I normally stay away from Numerology topics because many people use this topic to try to predict when our Lord will return. They will always be wrong.

I do want to thank you for posting this. My daughter has been witnessing to her cousin for two years and the cousin 'thinks' that she has scientifically proven that there is no God. She keeps coming back and is getting closer, so this might be a good article to give her. Thank you.

Please pray for my family.

309 posted on 12/05/2004 11:00:48 PM PST by Krodg
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