Posted on 11/21/2004 2:48:08 PM PST by atari
Im catholic, but I wasnt raised in a religious household.
Im totally clueless about most Protestant denominations especially, and If any would tell me the differences between them, or point me to a site that would help, that would be great. :-)
How do you reconcile this statement with Christ's own words. In John 14:16 He says: "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans;I will come to you."
Clearly, Christ is not discussing the Pope here. Unless you believe the Pope is also the Holy Spirit.
Then why is this single verse the only one Catholics use to support their contention that God chose Peter be the first Pope?
OK. Does that Catholic Mass really say what Ima says it does? ie...
"It was NOT UNTIL they broke bread together that it was revealed to them that He was Christ, the Son of the Living God!
This, my friends, is exactly what is truly revealed in the Catholic Mass, which is constantly being celebrated at some place on earth 24x7x365.
And "The Church" you are refering to is the Catholic Church?
once more, using the Other's trick of twisting words. Did NYer say the Pope was negating or supplanting the Holy Spirit? NO. Instead, you're twisting everything around to attack Christianity.
I said, AFTER the resurrection, people did NOT RECOGNIZE HIM (who HE was), until they broke bread together!
Here it is from YOUR bible (now, being a "bible-only" type like I was, you have to read this for yourself!):
Luke 24
The Resurrection
1On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " 8Then they remembered his words.
9When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.
On the Road to Emmaus
13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[1] from Jerusalem. 14They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.
17He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?"
18They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?"
19"What things?" he asked.
20"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see."
25He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Did not the Christ[2] have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
28As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. 29But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them.
30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
33They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.
Now...are you going to do the charitable thing and apologize? Remember, I already *know* the scriptures, having studied them to my own understanding for 20 years. Before you are so quick to judge the Church wrong, I have a good grasp on scripture. However, I have found that there are some incredible truths that can be FOUND in the bible that are not obvious to those who lean on their own understanding.
The Apostolic teaching (good enough for Christ, was it not?) has preserved this knowledge. It is amazing, really, to have my eyes opened (like THOSE in the above passage) when I thought I knew my stuff so well.
And by that term "Bible Christian", I don't mean to denigrate our brethern who read scripture diligently and ponder on The Word. I mean those who read a little and like to think they know it all, like to think they can co-opt the teachings of Christ and His Church over 2000 years
Ima responded with two separate sentences, of which only the second one referred to the mass.
It's going to be a lonely holiday season
You are incredibly defensive. I quoted Ida verbatim. I put absolutely no words in anyone's mouth. I asked a simple question. A simple response was all that is required. Your leap to an aggressive attack on "Bible Christians" is very revealing. And unfortunate.
Again. I have asked a simple question, and you have leapt to a negative and very defensive response. Relax. I quoted NYer exactly and everyone can read his post. I have asked him a simple question. I'm sure he is more than capable of offering a reasonable response. Clearly, you are not.
Ima, you and Cronos appear to have gone to the same school of defensive "discussion". MY Bible shares EXACTLY the same translation of Luke as YOUR Bible. Being familiar with both, I'm sure you know that. I asked you a very simple question, and you have answered. Clearly, I did not understand the context of your statements. I'm still not sure what your point is. But obviously, you are absolutely correct in your statements as they apply to Luke. As a suggestion, maybe you could mention the verse you are discussing when you offer it.
OK. Upon what evidence do you base that statement? Realize, this is just a question. I am not attacking anyone, anything or any church. NYer has offered to answer questions about the Catholic Church. He isn't around right now. Can you fill in instead?
I'm glad you added that, because that certainly isn't clear in the tone of your posts.
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