PROPHETIC SIGNS THAT WE ARE IN THE END TIMES [A good summary of SOME key evidences--QX]

EXCERPTS FROM CHAPTER 2 FROM: YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHECY: Prophetic Gifts in Ministry Today by Ernest B. Gentile

NOTE: Typically in presentations on this topic on FR, naysayers will scream that the Pentecostals etc. have no scholars nor scholarship to show for themselves in their midst or produced by them. Of course, this has usually and historically been mostly hogwash. The excerpts from this text and certainly the references included demonstrate abundant rich and high quality scholarship. I won’t hold my breath for an apology! LOL.

INCREASED INTEREST IN PROPHECY

A lion has roared! Who will not fear? The LORD GOD has spoken! Who can but prophesy?

Amos 3:8

• A REMARKABLE COVER and lead story appeared in the January 14, 1991, issue of Christianity Today. Caricatured on the front cover in striking pose, an acclaimed modern prophet stands on a jagged rock over-looking a city. The wind whips his tie and flowing cape as he stretches forth his left hand dramatically while grasping a Moses-like walking staff firmly in the other. The caption proclaims. Seers in the Heartland. ¹ [Michael G Maudlin, “Seers in the Heartland, “ Christianity Today 35 (January 14, 1991), pp. 18-22

In his opening page announcement of the lead article, managing editor David Neff says: "If, in the 1960s, you had said someone had 'a prophetic ministry,' you would have probably meant that person offered a radical social critique—and had an abrasive personality, long hair, and love beads. Say 'prophetic ministry' today, and people will think you mean someone speaks a word from God."

We live in a time when people desire—and desperately need—to hear from God. It is natural, therefore, that Bible-believing Christians are looking seriously at the gift of prophecy and the ministry of prophets. Is this ministry available and valid? The inquiry is legitimate since prophetism runs throughout the Bible.

The Importance of Prophecy p 26

The underlying, basic question is this: How does God speak to His people? Christians hear Gods voice through His written Word, the Bible. God also uses counselors, circumstances, impressions, answered prayer, even human conscience. Most Christians experience such guidance at one time or another. In Bible days prophecy stood as probably the most usual way of hearing God’s voice. Prophets and prophecy were an important part of God’s Old Testament agenda as well as part of Christ’s agenda for the early Church life.

A refreshing contemporary realization of this ancient biblical practice is now taking place, with many churches discovering that prophecy can be a wonderful and meaningful enhancement of today’s church life.

In both New Testament times and in the contemporary Church, prophecy refers to an inspired spoken message that God brings to a person or a group of people through a Spirit-filled Christian. The Spokesperson is empowered spiritually to declare to a given audience words that have been imparted by divine revelation. This is a supernatural or miraculous happening—a divine communiqué!

The fact that leading magazines and journals carry articles on this subject, and that leading magazines and journals carry articles on this subject, and that popular writers devote time to the subject, indicates a continuing concern and curiosity by Christian readers. ² [Three examples: Wayne A. Grudem, “Why Christians Can Still Prophecy: Scripture Encourages Us to Seek the Gift Yet Today,” Christianity Today 32/13 (September 16, 1988), pp 29-35; C. Peter Wagner, “The Gift of Prophecy Is for Today,” Church Growth (autumn 1994); Jamie Buckingham, “The Prophet’s Calling,” Ministries Today (January/February 1992), pp.55-63.] As one religious analyst puts it, “Currently there is a fashionable interest in prophecy.” ³ [Mark J. Cartledge, “Charismatic Prophecy and New Testament Prophecy,” Themelios 17 (October-November 1991), pp. 17-19. He also gives a good summary of recent thought.] This new (or is it just updated?) attitude is reflected in the more than three dozen contemporary books on spiritual gifts in my library—a mere sampling of the total literature available.

Coming from a wide range of denominational backgrounds, many of these modern authors believe that the phenomenon called prophecy exists in today’s Church. Well-written and thought-provoking books from unexpected sources and publishers challenge traditional assumptions about the need for and importance of prophecy in today’s Church. ⁴ [See David Hill, New Testament Prophecy (Atlanta: John Knox, 1979); Graham Houston, Prophecy: A Gift for Today? (Downer’s Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity, 1989); Jacobs, Voice Some feel so strongly about the prophetic renewal that they declare the Church is in an authentic “prophetic movement” today. ⁵ [See, for instance, Bill Hamon, Prophets and the Prophetic Movement: God’s Prophetic Move Today (Shippenburg, Pa.: Destiny Image, 1990), Vol. 2] F.F. Bruce summarizes the situation well: “The prophetic ministry probably receives greater recognition in today’s Church than it has enjoyed for a long time.” ⁶ [A comment made by F. F. Bruce in his foreword for Clifford Hill, Prophecy Past and Present (Crowborough, East Sussex: Highland, 1989), p. xii. This excellent, scholarly book argues persuasively for modern-day prophecy.]

The academic community also has experienced a heightened interest in prophecy. Reputable scholars have produced more than a dozen significant books during the past twenty years. ⁷ [See David E. Aune’s fourteen-page survey of five significant treatments, Prophecy in Early Christianity and the Ancient Mediterranean World (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1983), pp. 1-14.] In addition, a great deal of in-depth, specialized material on prophecy is found in the monographs of the rather exclusive journals produced by theological seminaries, Bible societies and publishing houses. More than one hundred of these scholarly articles contain insights of interest here. ⁸ [The specific articles used are listed in the bibliography.]

Increased Interest in Prophecy p27

Charismatic circles also have generated a flurry of writings about the prophetic. More than two dozen of these books and pamphlets, some academic and others geared for popular reading, are currently available. All advocate the prophetic ministry in today's Church.

In past years the discussion of spiritual gifts has sparked controversy among Bible scholars and Church leaders, especially over glossolalia or speaking in tongues. The focus today has made a surprising shift from speaking in tongues to the gift of prophecy. Two general positions emerge: the continuance school, which affirms that prophecy and spiritual gifts continue today, and the cessationist school, which denies that prophecy and gifts continued beyond the early Church.

A climate of intense interest in prophetism now exists because of this confluence of mounting popular attention, spiritual activity, scholarly debate and increasing prominence of various books. Wise counsel is given by John W. Hilber: "The issue is not purely academic but is a matter of serious pastoral concern." ⁹ [John W. Hilber, “Diversity of Old Testament Prophetic Phenomena and New Testament Prophecy,” Westminster Theological Journal 56 (1994), p. 243]

Interest in prophecy is not new. Church leaders always have faced the challenge of reconciling the blessed and often unpredictable breath of the Holy Spirit with the Church's secure, nailed-down traditions and standards. In fact, all the movements within Christendom can be seen from the perspective of the spirit of prophecy versus institutional order. ¹⁰ [Stanley M Burgess deals with the tension between prophecy and form in a fine study of the Church from the end of the first century A.D. to the end of the fifth century. The Spirit and the Church: Antiquity (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1984). Also see chapter 15 in this book]

An unrestrained spirit of prophecy always poses a danger of fanaticism and exclusivism. In contrast, dead institutionalism poses the ever-present danger of stifling the breath of God's Spirit. Let us seek the balance that will join the strength of the institution (unity, order and stability) to the dynamic of the prophetic (freshness, spontaneity and life). These two forces become a workable team when the approach is changed from "prophecy versus order" to the positive idea of "prophecy and order."

A belief in continuing revelation (i.e.. God does speak today as well as yesterday) and the validity of prophecy in today's Church need not frusirate us. A harmonious and healthful tension can exist between:

Biblical teaching;
Popular/contemporary need;
Scholarly/academic insights;
Pastoral/practical concerns.

The Church needs balance rather than polarization! It will prove detrimental to gravitate toward just emotional experience or intellectual ivory towers or programmed efficiency ... or to an incomplete biblical position.

A statement of four modern-day approaches to prophecy will help our discussion. My abbreviated summaries naturally reflect my own opinion (#4), but I am grateful for the worthwhile contributions each view has made to the total picture of prophecy in the Church.

1 The Form Critical School and the "I Sayings" ofJesns [author’s bold]

This approach, espoused by some form critics of the New Testament, is hardly known outside scholarly circles, but it has made a significant impact on the discussion of prophecy and the training of ministers.

This theory proposes that Jesus is both the Jesus of history as well as the living Lord in heaven. As the historical Jesus who walked on earth, He did give teaching, some of which was remembered and recorded. AS the Lord in heaven, He possibly spoke through Christian prophets present in the early Church prior to the writing of the gospels. These prophets received and uttered words from the risen Jesus to the congregations. These sayings were then recorded as authentic sayings of the risen Jesus and incorporated into the Church’s written tradition of the recorded sayings of the historical Jesus—even though He actually did not say them while physically on earth. ¹¹ [See M. Eugene Boring, The Continuing Voice of Jesus: Christian Prophecy & the Gospel Tradition ( (Louisville: Westminster/John Knox, 1991), chapter 1. Also see Aune, Prophecy in Early Christianity, chapter 9, and “Christian Prophecy and the Sayings of Jesus,” New Testament Studies 29 (1982), pp. 104-112.] Whether or not these prophetic words were really the words of Jesus (or considered to be) is of little consequence, so they say, because they at least reflected the ideas of the early Christians.

Even scholars promoting this viewpoint admit the lack of conclusive evidence, and a number of New Testament scholars remain unpersuaded. ¹² I cannot imagine that the integrity of the early Church leaders would have allowed them to mix the actual remembered, recorded sayings of Jesus with spontaneous, prophetic utterances given in the Church and then record them all as the true account of Jesus’ earthly ministry! I appreciate the serious effort expended to explain the Bible and the mystery of prophecy, but take strong exception to any effort to force the Bible into an anti-supernatural mode. [COLOR, BOLD is Quix emphasis. –throughout. Italics used is the author’s emphasis throughout—except that headings were bolded by the author] [12 See Clilfford Hill, Prophecy, pp. 160-185. Also his journal article “On the Evidence for the Creative Role of Christian Prophets,” New Testament Studies 20 (1973-1974), pp. 262-274.]

Bultmann and other liberal German theologians carried this approach to the extreme as they “demythologized” the New Testament, while at the same time using this theory of prophecy to explain the creativity of early Church beliefs. Recorded miracles became merely symbolic stories and the utterances of “inspired” prophets became statements by Jesus. ¹³ Unfortunately, many ministers have been trained in this approach during seminary studies, which has affected their view of prophecy and how they present the subject to the people. [13 Boring, Continuing Voice, p. 20.]

Increased Interest in Prophecy p. 29

The task of the early Church prophets was not to create words on a par with the original historical sayings of Jesus, but rather to speak contemporary application of spiritual principles for current situations. I must conclude that insufficient evidence, unprovable theories and an unfortunate lack of understanding of the true nature of the gift of prophecy in the early Church render this a most implausible theory. ¹⁴ [See the challenging testimonial critique of the historical-critical method by Eta Linnemann, a reputable scholar who studied under Bultmann and other German scholars: Historical Criticism of the Bible: Methodology or Ideology? (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1990).]

2. The Cessationist Approach

This view holds that biblical prophecy in both Testaments became the written biblical record called the Bible. The gift of prophecy made the writing of Scripture an inerrant experience so that the words of the original copies were completely accurate. There may have been, they say, some prophecy for domestic situations for a short while, but it was without error, for the message came in unmistakable clarity.

F. David Farnell, a leading advocate, says: "Current novel attempts at defining prophecy impugn the miraculous nature of New Testament prophecy.... The gift of prophecy played a vital role in the foundational aspects of the Church. With the Church firmly established through the ministry of the first-century apostles and New Testament prophets, prophecy passed from the scene." ¹⁵ [F. David Farnell, “When Will the Gift of Prophecy Cease?” Bibliotheca Sacra 150 (April-June 1993), p. 171.]

Cessationists are to be commended for their fervency in protecting the integrity and inspiration of the Bible. God's Word is certainly clear that the Spirit of prophecy did inspire the giving of Scripture. Unfortunately" no acknowledgment is given by cessationists that prophecy could be used in any other way. They make no recognition of other operations of the prophetic anointing (non-Scripture prophecy) that occurred in both Old and New Testaments. ¹⁶ [Refer to chapter 14 where I give my basic refutation of the five major arguments for the cessation of prophecy and the interpretation of the five major Bible passages used for the support of cessationism.]

This viewpoint also neglects a most significant reference. Revelation 19:10: "He said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" {KIV). If prophecy was to cease after the scriptural canon was established, would this not mean the cessation of Jesus' voice (through the Spirit) in_the Church?

Although the Greek text supports either "the witness about Jesus" or "the witness by Jesus," ¹⁷ it seems likely that this text equates prophecy the Church with Jesus' voice. Jesus' own testimony is maintained in and through His Spirit-filled, prophetic people. We could say, then, that Jesus speaks to the local church not only through the Bible but also through inspired prophecy. I agree with Rick Joyner's comment on this verse: “ALL true prophecy is His testimony. It comes from Him and draws us to Him. It is what He is saying to His church." ¹⁸ [17 C. F. D. Moule comments that Revelation 19:10 “seems . . . to identify the testimony borne by Jesus himself as ‘the concern or burden of the Spirit who inspired prophecy.’ . . . There is strong evidence for taking ‘of Jesus’ as a subjective genitive: it is not ‘witness to Jesus’ but ‘the witness borne by Jesus.’” The Holy Spirit (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979), p. 63.] [18 Rick Joyner, The Prophetic Ministry (Charlotte, N.C.: MorningStar, 1997), p.49.]

The Importance of Prophecy p.30

Revelation 19:10 is complemented by Revelation 22:6, which shows clearly that God controls the inspiration of the prophets: “He said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true;’ and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place. . . .”

The God who is to be worshiped initiates in the hearts of His people the desire to worship Him. As the Church worships, the Person of Jesus it testified to among them (Hebrews 2:12), and they in turn are imbued with the spirit of prophecy. The Church thereby preserves Jesus’ own present salvation testimony, which brings current application to His recorded words.

[Given the need to excerpt for several reasons, I’m leaving out position #3—the ‘Mediated’ approach as I think it’s a mostly nonsensical bastardized and useless to un-Godly approach.

4. The Historical Continuity Approach

Prophecy given by the Holy Spirit in Old Testament times continued into the early Church and now extends into the contemporary Church. The early Christians felt themselves to be a prophetic people in historic continuity with the prophecy and prophets of the Old Testament. There is not

the slightest hint of disagreement with this thought in the New Testament. Also, the clear tenor of the New Testament is that this supernatural activity was meant to continue throughout the Church age.. My term historic continuity refers to the conviction that the voice of God is heard among His people on a continuing basis.

Prophecy in biblical times existed on two levels, both of which I feel may be called “inspired.” I would suggest that the Word of God came as:

*God-breathed words such as the prophecy that was inscripturated into the Bible. When God spoke in this manner He bypassed human frailties. Sometimes the prophet himself did not understand the words he gave. Scripture words were inerrant in the original and are God-spoken without possibility of error or need of evaluation. A God-breathed word is literally God’s unquestioned and eternal Word (see my chapter 5). Such prophecy no longer comes since the canon of Scripture is complete.

• Spirit-quickened words, which may be one hundred percent accurate yet are not placed on a par with Scripture. Such words are inspired by the Spirit and use human frailties, but they are not God-breathed words. This is the prophecy that was in the Corinthian church and is in numbers of churches today. It is indeed a word from the Lord for the encouragement of a given audience at a given place at a given time, but it must be tested and approved by the congregation. Paul considered the Spirit-quickened prophecies of the Tyrean believers, for instance, to be a word of God (Acts 21:4), and the unbelievers visiting the Corinthian church meetings accepted contemporary prophecy as authentically from God (1 Corinthians 14). Such prophecy is to be judged for reasonable accuracy (see chapters 20 and 21).

Prophets in both Old and New Testament times uttered prophecies to audiences about domestic issues that were authoritative for those given situations, yet were NOT put on a par with Scripture or deemed universally significant for inclusion in the Bible. [CAPS: Quix] Also note that provision was made in both Testaments to test prophecy, indicating the possibility of one hundred percent accuracy has always been present—but so has the possibility of partial or total inaccuracy. ²⁷ Prophecy for domestic situations is not considered competition with the prophecy that produced the Bible. Such common propnecy, this view advocates can exist today and is an integral part of a church flowing in continuity with the historic past. [27 Scripture itself seems to take in stride certain prophecy that was not fulfilled verbatim and could be classified as inspired or Spirit-quickened but not God-breathed or inscripturated. Agabus’ “thus saith the Spirit” prophecy was fulfilled in meaning but not in minute detail of actual words used (see Acts 21:11, 33).]

Common prophecy, called by some a “now word” or a rhema word” or “a word from the Lord,” is not considered to be on the same level with the esteemed, written, recorded Logos Word of God. Both the New Testament and historical evidence indicate that such commonplace, domestic, community prophecy among trained, spiritual churches can be, and usually is, highly accurate and most assuredly a “word from God.”

This last approach to prophecy is the one I am pursuing in this book.

Key Questions

This study will address the following questions as we proceed:

Where did prophecy originate? How did the ancient Hebrew prophets function?
What does the New Testament teach about prophecy? Is it the same as Old Testament prophecy?
Is New Testament prophecy similar to, or the same as, or different in kind to, contemporary prophecy? Can there be authentic prophecy today?
Should today’s local church expect the kind of prophecy in her services that was experienced by the New Testament churches of Bible days?
How can such a ministry of the Holy Spirit be encouraged and safe-guarded in our churches so that fanaticism will not occur?

This study of prophetism works with three periods that overlap somewhat: Hebrew prophecy, New Testament prophecy and modern-day prophecy. We will find that the essential substance of prophecy—God’s voice to mankind—remains unchanged, even though the subject matter, the audience and other details change. In that sense there is historical continuity.

Hebrew prophecy need not be tightly confined to its own time zone, for prophetic activity spills over into the Chruch age. In chapter 9 we will carefully compare and clarify the differences between the use of prophecy in Old and New Testament times. But for now I want to emphasize that prophecy in Christian churches is part of a great, continuing biblical tradition.

It would be a gargantuan task to analyze prophecy and prophets throughout Church history—certainly beyond the scope of this present effort. Examples of authentic prophecy are scattered throughout the entire Chrch age. But, like other spiritual gifts, prophecy has not always been an important item on the agenda of the Church. Often the reporting of the exercise of this gift was biased; thus it is difficult to evaluate. ²⁸ Some periods of Church history are like the four hundred silent years between the Old and New Testaments when the prophetic voice in Israel appears to have been stilled. [28 Some interesting references are Bruce Yocum’s chapter 1, “A Brief History of Christian Prophecy,” Prophecy; Jack Deere’s chapter 5, “Presbyterian Prophets” (examples from A.D. 1500s and 1600s), Surprised by the Voice of God (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996); David Pytches’ chapter 15, “Prophecy during the Dark Ages,” and his chapters 16-19, which talk about the French prophets (A.D. 1500-1600), the German prophets (1500s), the Ranters (1500-1700) and the Quakers (1600s), Prophecy in the Local Church: A Practical Handbook and Historical Overview (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1993).]

UPDATE ON NILUS PROPHECY SOURCE SEARCH:

I'm willing to share the email addy of the source of this email with reasonable and interested folks.

From: [Bro B A]
To: Quix
Subject: Re: INQUIRY RE ST NILUS PROPHECY

This was a very interesting question, so I took some time to research it.

First, many of the web sites -- and I looked at a lot of them -- confuse the author of this prophecy. Some attribute it to St. Nilus of Ancyra (also called Nilus the Ascetic, 5th century) or Nilus of Sinai (died ca. 430, associated with St. John Chrysostom; see the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia entry:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11079b.htm

). That is clearly incorrect, and anachronistic. In those days, no one numbered the centuries as a way of dating, not even in making prophecies.

Many other sites, correctly I believe, attribute it to Neilos the Myrrhstreamer of Mt. Athos. In Greek, that is Neilos Myrrhoblytos. From here on I will use the Greek spelling, Neilos.

One form of this prophecy citing the name of Neilos Myrroblytos and occurring in many web sites begins like this, with a title and giving the date of the prophecy or his death date (?) as 1651:

The Prophecy of St. Nilus the Myrthstreamer (1651 A.D.)

"After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable. When the time of the advent of the antichrist approaches, people's minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will grow unrecognizable.

I have not been able to figure out where the date, 1651 comes from.

I have found one apparently independent web source (by independent, I mean it doesn't just copy what all the other web sites have), and this source is, I believe accurate. This source gives what appears to be an exact (literal) translation, which has been "interpreted" in the other translations. This translation appears as follows, including the prefatory sentence that gives a date of 1817. (I will comment on the date 1817 below):

These Prophecies were made postumously, in 1817 A.D. to a nearly illiterate Athonite monk, Theophanes, using the dates of the Calendar from Creation, from which there has been much confusion!

After the 4 quarters of a century from now (i.e.1917), for three quarters of a century, (1992) the people of that time will become unrecognizable. When the time of the advent of the antichrist approaches, people's minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonor and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will grow unrecognizable. People's appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to their shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the antichrist. There will be no respect for parents and elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vile men, completely failing to distinguish the right-hand way from the left.

--from the Burning Bush Monastery website:

http://www2.netdoor.com/~frelia/articles.html

(index page with link to this text of the prophecy:

http://www2.netdoor.com/~frelia/prophecies.html

You can see how the "smooth" translations like that I quoted first are derived from the original text that is apparently represented literally in this translation.

Finally -- I looked up Neilos Myrrhoblytos in Spyridon Lambros' catalog of the manuscripts in the monasteries of Mount Athos to see what works of this author are attested there. I found only one work, the following one, in two codices: cod. Xenophontos 713 (copied in 1858) and cod. Panteleeimon 280 (copied in 1856. Both codices were copied by the same monk, Jakob, a well known copyist of this era on the Holy Mountain.

The title as given by Lambros. essentially the same in both codices, is as follows (this translation is based on reading the titles in both codices):

A most spiritually edifying Book of our holy (hosios) and inspired father Neilos Myrrhoblytos concerning the things which, revealed by the will of God and the forethought of our all holy mistress Mother of God -- ephor, guardian and president of the Holy Mountain -- among various schemas of monks [i.e., monks of various ranks?], were narrated to the monk Theophanes, renamed Aichmalotos, [the name means, "prisoner"] concerning the decline of the (Holy) Mountain which occurred in 1821 so that they [the monks of Mt. Athos] might be found in repentance,,, copied at the expense and patronage of the most holy and learned lord Evgenios Hieromonk, by the hand of the monk Jakob in [date: 1858 (cod. Xenophontos 713) or 1856 (cod. Panteleeimon 280)].

From the that title in the catalog description, I cannot tell for sure if this prophecy occurs in this book, but it seems probable. In any case, it gives an approximate time and context for the origin of the prophecy. 1821 was just prior to the Greek war of independance, when most of the monks of Mount Athos left to fight against the Turks, and the Holy Mountain was left seriously depopulated. At that time the quality of the spiritual life on Mount Athos declined markedly.

This information corresponds closely to the information provided in the website of the Burning Bush Monastery. I hope this is helpful in answering your question. I am going to post it on the Friends of Mount Athos website as soon as I complete a little more research. (I have a microfilm of cod. Panteleeimon 280, and I want to read it to see if I can find this prophecy in it. But I am pressed for time at the moment, because it is the end of the semester here at Bates College, and I have a lot of student papers to read and grade!

I will let you know what I find in the microfilm.

[Bro B A]
The Friends of Mount Athos

Greetings, Bro B,

Am keenly interested in finding confirmation in any quality form that the prophecy of St Nilus commonly available on the net is, in fact, from the period years 380-403 approx. Have been trying for many weeks to track such down to little avail.

Perhaps you can help me.

Have just found your website and am fascinated with your projects. I hope I can return for a more leisurely review before too long.

God's best to you and yours,

DEAR ONES,

I have sadly come to the reluctant conclusion that Andre Strom (son of a dear NZ friend), is absolutely right about the prophetic movement currently.

I believe he is particularly right about the economic aspect. I have long felt: FREELY YOU HAVE RECEIVED, FREELY GIVE.

I have ranted at the owner and founder of the Elijah List repeatedly about his relentless, heavy handed and pervasive advertisements. Even the "PRINTER FRIENDLY" version can have 2-6 out of 8 pages being advertising--what a waste if one is printing to read in a hurry.

The Elijah List owner justifies it by noting all the single mothers he supports with the ministry of the list. I'm not moved by that, sadly. I strongly support a ministry of supporting mangled, impoverished and hurting single mothers and families. But I don't believe heavy handed commercialism is remotely the way to go about it. I have to believe that doing it God's way would result in more support for more mothers.

Twisting arms with slick, relentless Madison Avenue techniques has to be one of the worst ways to do good works.

The naysayers hereon may seize on the negative aspects of the following post. I hope not. Imho, they will find themselves all the sooner on the end of The Lord's discipline stick, if they do.

Andrew is not throwing out the baby with the bath. He is calling for repentance and cleaning up our act throughout the movement and Christendom.

And, I'm convinced that God is closer and closer to doing just that. I think it will be shockingly sobering as well as glorious.

Blessings, Qx

PART #2 - "LEAVING THE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT"

-by Andrew Strom.

I guess you will not be surprised to hear that I was flooded with 600 emails within 24 hours of my announcement that I was leaving the Prophetic movement. Many of them seemed to be highly supportive of the stand I had taken. (-A lot of people have seen alarming things in this movement). But I'm sure I will receive a lot of flak also.
For many years, even when I was truly disturbed by something I usually avoided "naming names" as much as possible. I do not approve of the 'Heresy Hunters' who seem to take such delight in maligning Spirit-filled ministries across the Internet. There is no delight in such things for me. Only grief and sadness that the name of Jesus is once again being brought down into the mud. We live in very sad times in the church today, don't we?

After my previous article, many people asked me again to "name names" and announce clearly who the leaders were at this conference - even though that info was already at the top of my first email. For this one time, I am actually going to accede to their request - because we need to clear the air about these leaders and also a number of others as well. But I have to tell you, I have been totally heart-sick at having to talk about all this.

The speakers at this KC 'Whitedove' Conference were Bob Jones, Paul Keith Davis, Bobby Conner, John Paul Jackson, Shawn Bolz - plus Jim Goll and one or two others. Sadly, I have to say that I have rarely felt so grieved or devastated as when I witnessed the carryings-on at this event. If you get the 'Elijah' List (-the main Prophetic email List) you will recognize most of the names above as being amongst the top "movers and shakers" of the whole movement.

A number of people asked me about Rick Joyner and Morningstar Ministries. Where do they fit into all this? Well, seemingly Rick has always managed to keep himself at a slight distance from the worst excesses and controversies of this movement. (-Except for when he joined the Knights of Malta - an ancient Catholic Order. -By the way, that is probably what led to the fad of using swords to 'knight' people that swept through this movement a few years ago). I have read some of Joyner's books and enjoy some of the things he says, but frankly, just because he has kept himself at a slight distance does not absolve him from the mess that the Prophetic is in today. The fact is, Mr Joyner is very close friends with almost all of the main leaders at this recent conference. He regularly ministers alongside them - and knows them very well. As a 'father' in the movement, if he had brought correction it would have been heeded, but he has clearly failed to do so. Thus, he has to be held accountable for the state of things as much as anyone else. And it would not surprise me if similar deception is finding it's way into Morningstar conferences. (-A number of the same people are involved). Sadly then, I have had to remove any articles or links to Rick Joyner from my web-site - along with all the others.

And speaking of the sad and grievous state of this movement, I wonder how many of you received the following notice from the Elijah List recently about a forthcoming 'School of the Prophets': "God is releasing a new level of revelation that goes beyond just operating in the nine gifts of the Spirit.... Sessions will cover topics like Hearing the Voice of God, Activating your Spiritual Senses, Third Heaven Experiences, and Exploring Spirit Realms." The advertised speakers are Todd Bentley, Stacey Campbell, Larry Randolph, Paul Keith Davis, and Bobby Conner.

Now, I have come across Todd Bentley's teachings on "How to visit the Third Heaven" before, and I tell you, it is nothing less than 'Guided Visualization' taken straight out of the New Age movement. Nothing less and nothing more. It is exactly the same. And I want you to know that if you attend these kinds of things, or allow these men to 'guide' you or lay hands upon you, then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of spirits and demonic counterfeits. As I have stated before, this movement has absolutely NO DISCERNMENT at all. It has sunk into such deception that it's leaders are opening people up to all kinds of demonic experiences on a daily basis. It has no idea that it is even doing it. -It behaves exactly like a movement that has been "given over to deception" by God. I urge again that everyone reading this would prayerfully consider CUTTING OFF all ties to this movement, lest you yourself become tainted by it.

It is with great sadness that I make the above points. I have refrained from saying such things in the past, but I can no longer do so, because untold people are being spiritually damaged by what is going on. Please understand my heart in this.

For the same reason I also need to warn you about another 'prophetess' who is often featured on the Elijah List. Her name is Jill Austin and I have personally witnessed her ministry in action. I would describe it as one of the most disturbing (by far) meetings that I have ever been in. There was definitely a strange "power" operating, but it certainly did not seem like God to me. She is also an expert at 'hyping' an audience. Please be very careful in such environments, my friends. -You can end up taking part in things that you would never normally do, just because you are part of a large crowd.

Sadly, there seem to be many other ministries in this movement involved in similar deception. In fact, I hate to say it, but a general rule might be that if someone is featured on the Elijah List, there has to be at least an 80% chance that their ministry is "off" in some major way. I will say just one more thing about the Elijah List: I am convinced that they will one day give account to God for taking upon themselves the name "Elijah" and then doing what they have done with it. Literally, by their own words they will be judged.

HOW TO AVOID DECEPTION

What a lot of people don't seem to recognize is the sheer level of 'peer pressure' and "crowd manipulation" that is going on at many of these events. They end up being led into doing things they feel uncomfortable with, just because "everybody else" is doing it. They squash down their discernment. They ignore the "little voice" or the tiny 'alarm bells' inside them that are trying to get their attention. And thus, multitudes of Christians are being led astray - and paying through the nose for the privilege. I urge anyone reading this who has ever squashed down their discernment and participated in such things, to get before God and REPENT of opening yourself up in that way. It is very important that you confess this before God and ask His forgiveness. RENOUNCE all deception in Jesus' name.

One thing we don't have much time to discuss here is the MONEY issue. This is a huge problem in the Prophetic. Now, I do understand that ministries need finances to operate. I run a ministry myself. And as most of you know, about 5 times a year we put out a book or CD (available for any donation - or even just postage) to go towards the costs of keeping this ministry operating. However, the word itself is always free. It is terribly sad to see the charging of 'entry fees' to hear the word today, and the over-bearing emphasis on MONEY in the church. Did not Jesus clearly command: "Freely you have received, freely give"?

REDEFINING "PROPHET"

Just because I have cut myself off from today's Prophetic movement does not mean that I believe there is no place for prophets in the church. In fact, I believe we need true prophets now more than ever. But you will notice that there has been a subtle shift in the use of the term "prophet" over the last 25 years, and I believe we need to get back to the original meaning. It was not long ago that when you spoke of a 'prophet' you were usually referring to someone like Keith Green, Leonard Ravenhill or David Wilkerson - someone who was crying out to the lukewarm church, "REPENT." And if you look down the annals of history, you will find that there has never been a true Prophetic movement that did not have this as it's core message. Every true Prophetic movement, right from the Old Testament down through every Revival and Awakening that I have ever studied, has been a movement of REPENTANCE. And yet we find today a movement that calls itself "Prophetic" - but with spiritual 'revelations' and words of knowledge at its core. -No piercing word. This is the precise reason why it has gone off the rails. -It has abandoned it's age-old message. It's 'word' has been corrupted.

I am convinced that God IS going to raise up true prophets in this hour to cry to the lukewarm church "Repent". There is a movement coming that is utterly different from that which we have seen. God is coming to clean house. The "shaking" has already begun. And the "John-the-Baptists" whom God has prepared in the caves and wildernesses are about to arise and speak His word - just as in every Great Awakening down through history.

Some people asked me if I was going to shut down our web-sites and email Lists. Not at all. The whole point of what we're doing is to call forth and encourage these "John-the-Baptists" whom God is raising up in this hour. We will not stop crying aloud until we see a great 'Repentance' Revival sweeping this nation from coast to coast.

As A.W. Tozer wrote of all true prophets down the ages: "God has always had His specialists whose chief concern has been the moral breakdown, the decline in the spiritual health of the nation or the church. Such men were Elijah, Jeremiah, Malachi and others of their kind who appeared at critical moments in history to reprove, rebuke and exhort in the name of God and righteousness... Such a man was likely to be drastic, radical, possibly at times violent, and the curious crowd that gathered to watch him work soon branded him as extreme, fanatical, negative. And in a sense they were right. He was single-minded, severe, fearless, and these were the qualities the circumstances demanded. He shocked some, frightened others and alienated not a few, but he knew who had called him and what he was sent to do. His ministry was geared to the emergency, and that fact marked him out as different, a man apart."

To give us feedback on this article, please write to: revival4@pars.net

An extra big THANKYOU to those who have been praying for us during this sad time. Truly appreciated, my friends.

God bless you all.

Kindest regards in Christ,

Andrew Strom.

To comment on this article, please send an email to-

revival4@pars.net

To join our weekly Prophetic/Revival email List, on which these kinds of things are discussed, simply send *ANY* email to-

anzac-subscribe@welovegod.org

(Please feel free to copy and share this article. -Or "link" to it).

DEAR ONES,

Much has been said by me on occasion about having good discernment.

I think Andrew makes an excellent point about Scripture alone doesn't cut it. The Pharisees had the Scripture memorized and studied it endlessly. . . . Qx

Practical tips for the End-time church.

Some people say that simply knowing the Scriptures is the best key to discernment. But this is not always the case. The Scribes and Pharisees were extrememly learned in the Scriptures and yet they missed the very Messiah that was prophesied! So knowing the Bible is good, but it is not the sole key to discernment.

Some of the most basic keys to discernment that God has shown me are as follows:

(1) Know your HOLY GOD intimately. (-When you have seen His glory, His holiness and His love - by drawing close to Him in prayer - then you can usually see through any "counterfeits" because you know the 'real thing' so well).

(2) Be a "lover of truth". This is very crucial. Are you someone who will actually stand up for TRUTH - even against the crowd? Or do you remain silent even when you feel something is very wrong?

(3) Humility. (-For where pride is on display, deception is sure to follow).

(4) The 'inner witness' of the Holy Spirit. We must learn to NEVER over-ride this "still small voice", as it will save us from deception again and again. (-More on this below).

Did you know that even an unbeliever can often spot a 'con-man' or a snake-oil salesman? They get a kind-of "gut feeling" about such things. And they are often right! In fact, they are often less gullible than the Christians! (-Because we are told in the church- "Do not judge", 'Touch not the Lord's anointed', "You have a critical spirit if you do not join in", etc, etc. This is the very reason why Christians are often the most gullible and easily deceived). We need to realize that the Bible says to "Test the spirits" and warns very strongly that the Last Days will be a time of "seducing spirits" and great deception. So how can we become more alert to these things?

I believe that God has placed within every human being at least a measure of an inner "warning system" to protect us from being easily deceived - just as He has given us all a conscience. It is something that He has built into every one of us, in His mercy.

But what I have found again and again with people who give themselves over to some form of deception is that they often "override" these alarm bells. They go against their 'better judgement'. They ignore the little voice deep inside them that is telling them that there is something wrong. Christians do this all the time. That is how they get themselves involved in such foolish deceptions.

This may all sound very obvious, but I am telling you, this one basic area alone could wipe out half the deception in the church right now. If only people would listen to these internal 'alarm bells' and act with common sense, half of it would be gone overnight.

The Bible is very clear that the Last Days are a time of such widespread deception that it would "deceive if possible the very elect". It also shows that much of this deception will arise from WITHIN the church - luring believers with "itching ears". Do we see evidence of this kind of thing taking place today? Certainly! In fact, some of it is at a level that is truly shocking. And yet it is all accepted as perfectly "normal" by many Christians.

One of the problems, of course, is that those who bring in these deceptions are 'trusted' by the congregation. They have a reputation and they put across some very convincing-sounding arguments and surround the whole thing with Biblical terminology. And thus the deception is harder to spot. (After all, if it were not "deceptive" then it would not be called 'deception'!) People see spiritual power operating and assume that it "must be God". But this is a very dangerous assumption to make in these days.

As I said in a previous article, there is also a lot of "peer pressure" involved as well. For if everyone in the church is getting into something, then shouldn't you just ignore those little 'alarm bells' and jump right in? This is what is happening all the time in the church right now. And some preachers are very good at making people feel that they are 'hindering the Spirit' if they do not get involved.

So how do you avoid being deceived in this way?

Very simply, you do not go along to these meetings in a "gullible" frame of mind. And you do not allow yourself to be carried along with the crowd. You listen carefully to the preaching and make sure that it truly is Biblical. Then you watch the ministry happening down the front of the meeting and discern whether it really is of God or not. You do not "override" any feelings of unease or any 'alarm bells' going off inside you. And you do not allow yourself to be swayed by 'peer pressure'. Even if the whole church is getting into something, it does not mean that you have to. If you do not feel quite "right" about it then DO NOT GET INVOLVED. If you need to, make some excuse and get out of there! You do not have to get involved in things that do not feel spiritually "right" to you.

A lot of people today will go down the front to get something "imparted" to them by almost every visiting speaker - almost as a matter of course. I tell you, in today's climate this can be a very dangerous thing to do. In fact, some of this 'impartation' business has very flimsy backing in Scripture. Who knows what on earth these preachers are imparting? And who knows where they picked it up? I tell you, deceiving spirits are commonplace today, and I believe they are being imparted to Christians on a large scale.

Let me give you an example. I received the following account from a preacher in England recently:

"There were about 20 fellow ministers all gathered together in one large room at a local minister's house. We were introduced to the special guest... The next 3 hours were the weirdest three hours I have ever had to endure, we started listening to [her] testimony which seemed very powerful, next she spoke of the times that she meets with the Angel Gabriel and other spiritual beings, next we moved on to portals between this world and the next and then finally to how she was going to open up a portal to Heaven in the room that we were all in. Now things started to happen, really crazy things and strange noises... As [she] moved around the room ministering to individual people they were crashing to the ground, bouncing up and down, running around as if on fire and making all sorts of sounds. When she came to me she had no prophetic words for me and nothing happened to me so she just moved on. My Vineyard friend was the first to crash to the floor. Since that day his church has taken on a different guise, it is not the same church any more."

Now, you should know that this 'guest speaker' was one of the very people I mentioned in my second article on "WHY I LEFT THE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT". I believe that this is a true account, because it is very similar to what I myself observed happening under that same ministry. In fact, what I saw was people making involuntary "bat"-like movements all over the building and an eery 'wailing' noise filling the air. It was truly awful.

Now, it should not surprise us that there are strong deceptions or "powerful delusions" around today, for this is exactly what the Scriptures predict will happen. All the way through the New Testament we are warned of these days - over and over again.

However, one of the problems we have is that God actually does 'strange and unusual' things Himself. (-Especially in Revivals). So we cannot simply throw out everything "unusual". Angelic visitations DO HAPPEN. Strange prophetic signs DO OCCUR. And being a strong Charismatic Christian myself, I expect to see believers speaking in tongues and moving in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as well. Now, there is no doubt that many of these things could be termed 'unusual' phenomena. So how do we tell the difference?

Well, God never goes against His own holy character. Or against Scripture. And as I often say, we may see Him do 'unusual' things but I believe we need to draw the line at "weird" or 'ugly'. Some of the deception that is around right now has a 'touchy-feely' New Age sense about it. Remember that the New Age movement majors on "inner healing" and unusual spiritual experiences. I do not believe in 'guided visualisation' or anything of that kind. And neither am I very fond of the writings of Catholic mystics or the like.

However, I have personally found it very helpful to immerse myself in the writings of past Revivalists and the accounts of great moves of God. A lot of the men and women involved in these Revivals lived very close to God and knew Him intimately. They knew His holiness, they knew His glory, and they knew His love. And it is enormously helpful to one's discernment to immerse oneself in these writings, I have found. I would recommend this to all Christians everywhere.

If you have been touched or involved in any way with manifestations or experiences that you think may not have been from God, then I urge you to utterly RENOUNCE (with your mouth, but also from the depths of your heart and soul) any links or involvement with that experience or 'anointing'. Please do not put this off, my friends. Some of this stuff is extremely dangerous. RENOUNCE IT today.

I hope this article has been of some practical help.

God bless you all!

Kindest regards in Christ,

Andrew Strom.

from:

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/discern.html

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.