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What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
http://www.raptureready.com ^

Posted on 10/17/2004 7:31:40 PM PDT by WhatNot

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1 posted on 10/17/2004 7:31:42 PM PDT by WhatNot
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To: WhatNot; CounterCounterCulture; Diver Dave

But what I want to know is how many years has Gary Condit been married to THAT woman.


2 posted on 10/17/2004 7:34:45 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (,)
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To: WhatNot

Pre-trib RAPTURE BUMP!!!!


3 posted on 10/17/2004 7:36:06 PM PDT by VRWCTexan (History has a long memory - but still repeats itself)
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To: WhatNot

You certainly are brave. LOL!


4 posted on 10/17/2004 7:49:09 PM PDT by NRA2BFree
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To: WhatNot; editor-surveyor; Commander8; fortheDeclaration; GrandEagle
ping......
5 posted on 10/17/2004 7:50:36 PM PDT by maestro
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To: WhatNot
”He” That is Taken Out of the Way

This is one of the reasons I quit believing in a pre trib rapture quite some time ago. To think that the Holy Spirit leaves the world, then that those who are left behind get saved in some cases is just not believable.

6 posted on 10/17/2004 8:25:24 PM PDT by ladyinred (The simple lie always conquers the more complex truth. (propaganda))
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To: WhatNot; OrthodoxPresbyterian; the-ironically-named-proverbs2; happygrl; Shellback Chuck
One way to check the soundness of a doctrine is to see how the world reacts to it. One company put out a questionnaire that was used to screen prospective employees. One of the questions was, "Do you believe in the rapture?" If you answered “yes,” your chances of getting hired would not be good.

Unreal!!!! By this sort of reasoning, any obscure loony theory could be legitimized. A person's chances of being hired, if he/she admits a belief in any number of wacko theories, is pretty slim as well. Lack of popularity does not indicate in any way that such beliefs are valid. Or invalid.

The soundness of doctrine is tested by searching Scripture (the testimony of the witnesses in the Law and the Prophets) to see if these things are true. "Searching Scripture" means exactly that, not looking to see what Hal Lindsey and Tim Lahaye and other "experts" have to say. "Searching Scripture" does not mean finding only those portions that seemingly promote one viewpoint, while ignoring those portions that conflict. That's pretty common nowadays, summed up in the ubiquitous expression,"difficult verses".

Amos 8:11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

7 posted on 10/17/2004 8:36:21 PM PDT by Thinkin' Gal (RE)
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To: ladyinred

It doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit leaves the world. That would be impossible because God is omni-present....everywhere present.

What it means is that the one currently holding back the onslaught of evil stops holding it back. "He who now prevents will prevent until he be taken out of the way." That is: He was standing in the way of evil. He steps out of the way of evil.


8 posted on 10/17/2004 9:19:19 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Proudly Supporting BUSH/CHENEY 2004!)
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To: xzins

That makes more sense to me, but I have had others tell me that the Holy Spirit literally leaves because He is embodied in the Christians. Your explanation is much more sensible.


9 posted on 10/17/2004 10:30:56 PM PDT by ladyinred (The simple lie always conquers the more complex truth. (propaganda))
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To: xzins
It doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit leaves the world. That would be impossible because God is omni-present....everywhere present. What it means is that the one currently holding back the onslaught of evil stops holding it back. "He who now prevents will prevent until he be taken out of the way." That is: He was standing in the way of evil. He steps out of the way of evil.

Amen!

I am always amazed at how people say they left a particular position over one scripture they could not understand.

With many it is the fact that sacrifices are offered again in the Millennium.

10 posted on 10/17/2004 11:06:32 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: WhatNot

Would you like me to alert the pretribulation rapture ping list?


11 posted on 10/17/2004 11:15:03 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Thank you Rush Limbaugh-godfather of the New Media.)
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To: ladyinred; xzins

I once heard it said...

There are those who believe in Pre-Trib

There are those who believe in Mid-Trib

and There are those who believe in Post-Trib.

What is most important is NOT to be a Post-Toastie.

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."


12 posted on 10/17/2004 11:34:20 PM PDT by Diver Dave (Stay Prayed Up)
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To: Thinkin' Gal

Moshiach has an idea of the order of things and how to interpret the Books of the Prophets in the Real, "Old" Testament.


13 posted on 10/18/2004 12:23:07 AM PDT by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon..)
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To: ladyinred
I have had others tell me that the Holy Spirit literally leaves because He is embodied in the Christians

Your sense is absolutely correct. The Holy Spirit truly does affect our sense of Truth. "He will lead us into all Truth." is what the Bible says.

The Truth is exactly what the scripture says. The one preventing the onslaught of evil will step out of the way of evil. In short, God finally gives what He has promised: As with Pharaoh of old, He lets men have the desires of their evil hearts.....and (literally) all HELL breaks loose.

14 posted on 10/18/2004 5:32:17 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Proudly Supporting BUSH/CHENEY 2004!)
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To: Diver Dave

Post-Toastie............LOL!


15 posted on 10/18/2004 5:37:06 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Proudly Supporting BUSH/CHENEY 2004!)
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To: fortheDeclaration

Hi, ftD. Good response.

How goes the presidential campaign in your state?


16 posted on 10/18/2004 5:38:00 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Proudly Supporting BUSH/CHENEY 2004!)
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To: maestro; WhatNot; editor-surveyor; Commander8; fortheDeclaration
Good morning gentlemen! I'll be quite busy today at work, but I just HAD to jump in here this morning.

In context Rev20 is CLEARLY after the tribulation.

REV: 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Matt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. ....
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Cor 15:
51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

In reading before and after these scriptures I still didn't find a specific time reference, maybe I missed it. What I did find is the sounding of the trumpet - the LAST trump I believe it is called.

Lets go back to Matthew Ch. 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I see a trumpet announcing the return of Christ here AFTER the tribulation.

1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here Gods word tells us that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, there will be a great falling away and that the man of sin (the anti-christ) would be revealed.

2 Thes
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

A couple of things of interest here. The first is that since the anti-christ does not even come to power until the tribulation, he certainly can not be revealed for who he is until after, or at least well into the tribulation. Since this happens first, Jesus can't be coming back at the beginning of the tribulation.

The second thing that hit me was that most of the Christian world is looking for Christs return to be the next major event when in fact the anti-christ's arrival will be the next event.
17 posted on 10/18/2004 5:55:38 AM PDT by GrandEagle
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To: fortheDeclaration; topcat54; xzins
I am always amazed at how people say they left a particular position over one scripture they could not understand. With many it is the fact that sacrifices are offered again in the Millennium.

For many, it's not lack of understanding -- we understand all too well.

I simply cannot square the pretribulational rubric with 2The 2:1-3, which speaks regarding the parousia of Christ as equivalent with the "gathering together to Him." They're conflated, and do not come until after the man of sin is revealed. Because this rather clearly indicates that there is just one 2nd Coming, not two; and because there is no explicit, good reason to separate a Rapture and a 2nd Coming, I moved away from the pretribulational position.

18 posted on 10/18/2004 6:39:31 AM PDT by jude24 (sola gratia)
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To: jude24; fortheDeclaration; xzins

You are correct.

The pre-trib rapture theory is not directly based on exaggerated literalism, as some would argue. It is based on the radical distinction that some folks make between Israel and the Church.

They argue that God cannot deal again with Israel until the Church is secretly removed from the earth.

As if God has not been dealing with Israel for the last 2000 years.


19 posted on 10/18/2004 6:53:03 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: jude24

You do not like the Rapture being separated from the 2nd Coming, so you moved away from a pretribulation rapture?

Do you now have a perspective that has the two occurring simultaneously? That would be unlikely, too, wouldn't it?

Seems to me you're going to have to separate them by at least a minute or two, aren't you?

How does he come with ten thousands of his saints if he hasn't already gathered them AT LEAST a minute or two before? And if a minute, why not an hour? a week?....


20 posted on 10/18/2004 7:19:34 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Proudly Supporting BUSH/CHENEY 2004!)
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