Wayward-looking-to-return-to-the-fold-Cathoilc Stumbles upon Jack Chick...now what?

9/28/04 | NJ Neocon

[NJ Neocon]

At first it looked like whacked out propaganda - but the best lies always have truth to them.

I need help sorting the truth from un-truth.

[Dominick]

ping for quote request.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

RESPONSE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
TO THE JOINT DECLARATION OF
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE LUTHERAN WORLD FEDERATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

Cited above, with link provided, in my #87.

So, then:

Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, is it True in any sense that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?

Well? True, or False?

[Dominick]

Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, is it True in any sense that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?

Stated in this fashion it is true.

Are you going to badger some other point now?

The position of the Church is that any good works a peron does is an inspiration from God. Simultaniously, hand in hand, the faith and works are what merits rewards in Heaven for a man. The CCC above states this. The Grace of God is given by God for reasons God has, not by a magic formula, or some "sinners prayer" alone. Through the grace of Christ's sacrifice, we inherit Eternal life.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, is it True in any sense that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"? ~~ Stated in this fashion it is true. Are you going to badger some other point now?

No need.

I've been insisting all along on exactly this point -- that the Roman Catholic church does teach that Good Works do preserve and increase Justification towards eternal life, and not just "Rewards in Heaven".

Contrary to what you and Soothing Dave have said of me, I've never claimed that the Roman Catholic church teaches that the "salvific" merits of Good Works can be de-coupled from Grace and Faith. But I have maintained that Trent and the Vatican DO TEACH that Good Works preserve and increase Justification towards eternal life.

And, as I have said, this is a radically different doctrine than the doctrine affirmed by the Orthodox and Lutherans:

Both Lutherans and Orthodox teach that divine grace operates universally and that God freely grants grace to all human beings. God's saving grace does not operate by necessity or in an irresistible manner, since human beings can reject it. Regarding the way in which salvation is appropriated by the believers, Lutherans, by teaching that justification and salvation are by grace alone through faith (sola gratia, sola fide), stress the absolute priority of divine grace in salvation. When they speak about saving faith they do not think of the dead faith which even the demons have (cf. James 2:19), but the faith which Abraham showed and which was reckoned to him as righteousness (cf. Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3,9). The Orthodox also affirm the absolute priority of divine grace. They underline that it is God's grace which enables our human will to conform to the divine will (cf. Phil 2:13) in the steps of Jesus praying, "not as I will but as You will" (Matt. 26:39), so that we may work out our salvation in fear and trembling (cf. Phil. 2:12). This is what the Orthodox mean by "synergy" (working together) of divine grace and the human will of the believer in the appropriation of the divine life in Christ. The understanding of synergy in salvation is helped by the fact that the human will in the one person of Christ was not abolished when the human nature was united in Him with the divine nature, according to the Christological decisions of the Ecumenical Councils. While Lutherans do not use the concept of synergy, they recognize the personal responsibility of the human being in the acceptance or refusal of divine grace through faith, and in the growth of faith and obedience to God. Lutherans and Orthodox both understand good works as the fruits and manifestations of the believer's faith and not as a means of salvation. ~~ LUTHERAN-ORTHODOX JOINT COMMISSION, Common Statements

That's what I have said all along -- but since you accused me of having mischaracterized Roman Catholic teaching, I refused to let the point go until I had your affirmation.

Now that we've cleared that up, the question remains: "Who's Right?" The Orthodox and Lutherans, or the Roman Catholics?

But it should be plainly evident that they are NOT teaching exactly the same thing on the subject of Justification.

Best, OP

[AlbionGirl]

I'm exhausted for you. Excellent defense of one's 'point', and interesting read.

By the way, love your tagline 'We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty.' It was the Gospel Reading at today's Mass.

[Dominick]

That's what I have said all along -- but since you accused me of having mischaracterized Roman Catholic teaching, I refused to let the point go until I had your affirmation.

Now that we've cleared that up, the question remains: "Who's Right?" The Orthodox and Lutherans, or the Roman Catholics?

There was no point. We get to heaven by the Grace of God, we do good works by the grace of God. This is what the Orthodox teach, and the Catholic Church teaches. Faith and works are hand in hand.

But it should be plainly evident that they are NOT teaching exactly the same thing on the subject of Justification.

On a technicality of grammar, you think there is a difference where there is none.

[kosta50]

But it should be plainly evident that they are NOT teaching exactly the same thing on the subject of Justification

That is actually an essential point that many may not be aware of.

[MarMema]

Good post OP. and thanks for it.

[redgolum]

I have been following this thread with interest, but haven't commented to much because there are those who have a far better style of communication then myself.

Lutheran theology is that no one can do "good" works except if they have recieved the free gift of grace from God. Doing what we on earth call "good works" while not being in a relationship with the Lord and Savior is like trying to rinse a stained shirt in tomato juice and then claim it is clean.

Good works are not a cause of increase in justification, but an increase in santification. I know that RC's don't seperate the two, and Lutherans (and EO?) do to an extent. This was part of the main cause of the final split in the Reformation

[SoothingDave]

Vatican: We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits."

OP: is it True that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?

You omit part of the equation. You turn "eternal life is , at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merit" into "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merit." Shouldn't you at least include an ellipsis to show where you have deleted part of the idea?

All is grace. We can agree upon that.

SD

[Cvengr]

IMHO, I haven't seen anything by Jack Chick that wouldn't receive more crowns in heaven than the reformed posters in this forum.

I'd recommend considering his method of ministry in its appropriate context. He might set out many a strawman argument, but he uses them to communicate truth to the unbeliever. I recognize it as driven by the Holy Spirit and a form of evangelism coupled with a gift of penning cartoons.

IMHO, I thank the Lord for more people like Jack Chick in their appropriate domains, while they remain faithful to Him.

[Cvengr]

Dittos on continuing sanctification through a continuing life in the Holy Spirit.

[Cvengr]

"is it True in any sense that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?

I suspect our righteous God will grant eternal life for good works and merits, however, the real problem with those who seek such a salvation may not recognize that from God's viewpoint, the only good work not contaminated by unrighteousness, is a work first performed through faith in God through Christ.

Accordingly, Scripture is quite clear to communicate that we are not saved by works lest any man should boast, rather salvation is through faith alone.

Two books will be opened in heaven, one of them being the Book of Works. The significant aspect for those seeking good works is to recognize that no work is considered righteous without being performed through faith in Him. All other works will be simply good for nothingness and those living by them cast to the place made for things good for nothingness, i.e. the Lake of Fire.

To express this answer concisely, ..no in the colloquial sense,...and yes, with the stipulation that the carnality of the set of persons saved by works independent of the Son is the null set, but they will nevertheless be considered in righteous judgment.

[GLENNS]

Good works are not a cause of increase in justification, but an increase in santification. I know that RC's don't seperate the two, and Lutherans (and EO?) do to an extent. This was part of the main cause of the final split in the Reformation

That's exactly correct. The very term: increase in justification makes no sense. The Gospel is that we are saved by the righteousness of Christ, which of course begs the question: Can the righteousness of Christ be increased?

Let it be an anathema.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You omit part of the equation. You turn "eternal life is , at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merit" into "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merit." Shouldn't you at least include an ellipsis to show where you have deleted part of the idea? All is grace. We can agree upon that.

No, SoothingDave.

There's no need to include an ellipsis, because I have already stipulated that the Roman Church does teach that the ability to perform Good Works is a result of God's grace.

Nonetheless, the Roman Church does teach that, in at least some sense, "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merit". As I have said before, you can say that this is "All of Grace", in the sense that the Roman Church believes that Man climbs a ladder of Good Works to "preserve and increase" his Justification towards eternal life, and that it is "all of Grace" because God has given him the arms with which to climb.

But this is still a RADICALLY different doctrine than the Doctrine of Justification preached by the Orthodox and Lutherans.

ROMAN CATHOLIC JUSTIFICATION:
Commensurate with and dependent upon God's Grace, Eternal Life IS "the reward given by God for good works and merit".

ORTHODOX AND LUTHERAN JUSTIFICATION:
Salvation is by GRACE ALONE; Eternal Life IS NOT "the reward given by God for good works and merit". "Lutherans and Orthodox both understand good works as the fruits and manifestations of the believer's faith, and not as a means of salvation."

Dominick says, "On a technicality of grammar, you think there is a difference where there is none"... but that's just bull-hockey. The fact is, the Roman Catholics DO NOT teach Justification in the same manner as the Roman Catholics.

• ROMAN CATHOLICISM -- "Eternal Life is, in some sense (under Grace), "the reward given by God for good works and merit".

• ORTHODOXY and LUTHERANISM -- "Eternal Life is BY GRACE ALONE, and is in no sense whatsoever "the reward given by God for good works and merit".

This is NOT a "technicality of grammar".

These are, in fact, radically different teachings.

---

Martin Luther may well have correctly apprehended that the Protestant Doctrine of Justification is not so different from that of the Orthodox, and thus he sought reconciliation with the Greeks; for myself, I think he was probably right.

The Roman Catholics (for example, Dominick and SoothingDave) try to upbraid the Lutherans and the Orthodox that their Doctrine of Justification is "very much the same" as Romanism, and that they doth protest too much.

But the fact is, the Lutheran Doctrine of Justication is NOT the same as the Roman Catholic, it is MUCH closer to the Orthodox understanding, AND THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AS ROMANISM.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The fact is, the Roman Catholics DO NOT teach Justification in the same manner as the Roman Catholics.

Well, that's true also; Dominick's 20th- Century "Roman Catholicism" would be considered overly-ecumenical by the 16th-Century Divines of Trent. For an "Infallible" Faith, Romanism does change quite a lot.

But, mea culpa -- I intended to write: "the Roman Catholics DO NOT teach Justification in the same manner as the Orthodox and the Lutherans".

The "cut and paste" function is making me lazy. Blah.

[kosta50]

What about Calvinist teachings on Justification? Do they differ signifcantly from the Lutheran?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

What about Calvinist teachings on Justification? Do they differ signifcantly from the Lutheran?

To some extent. Calvinists would affirm together with Lutherans and Orthodox that Good Works are the Fruits and Manifestations of Justification, and are "necessary" to Salvation in the sense of being necessary evidences, and NOT a means of Salvation. However, the Lutheran-Orthodox understanding of Justification, albeit by Grace alone through Faith alone, is more interwoven with the Holy Mysteries than is the Calvinist view. Calvinists do not see Baptism as granting Regeneration, but rather as Incorporating the Regenerate into the Church.

Let's look again at the Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission, Common Statements:

The mysteria/sacraments are founded on the incarnation, teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as witnessed in the Holy Scriptures. The sacraments of the church are the means by which Christ extends his saving work, which took place once and for all in the past, into the history of the church. These mysteria regenerate believers in the love of God the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit, and incorporate them into the body of Christ-the church-where they participate in the life of Christ. The sacraments are fruits of the salvific work of Christ. They are performed in the church, and grant specific gifts of grace for the salvation of the faithful and for building up the body of Christ.

Either a Lutheran or an Orthodox believer could affirm the entire statement above (in fact, they do, together). A Calvinist could affirm most of it, particularly the section which I have bolded; but a Calvinist would not affirm the section which I have underlined.

Put simply, Lutherans and Orthodox are closer to eachother in their understandings than are Calvinists and Orthodox. (Shrugs). In no way do I resent these differences, but I admit that the differences do exist (what has really irked me about Dominick and SoothingDave's posts are the seeming attempts to deny the reality of differences between Roman Catholic and Lutheran/Orthodox teachings on Justification. Frankly, differences DO exist, just as differences exist between the Calvinist and Lutheran/Orthodox teachings).

[todd1]

Obviously you have never been to a Mass... We do accept Jesus as our savior and we honor and love the mother of God.

[todd1]

That is truley the best way... I did the same thing before I went back to the Catholic Church....