Children Are Sinners??

Vanity | 09/26/04 | self

[bondserv]

If you can prove it has anything to do with the New Covenant, go ahead.

If the cross gives new perspective on this, like it does to the Sabbath, the Law, Sacrifices ... I am open to hearing about it. I am aware of no New Testament prevision in this area.

I would not teach dogmatically that the age of accountability in regards to eternal salvation is twenty, only that the Bible seems to treat this age as a boundary of some sort.

[spunkets]

"The heart of mankind is evil....until the Holy Spirit comes."

No it is not. Man was made in the image and likeness of God. That means both have Free will. God came to teach and here is what He taught.

John 9:1-5
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Free will demands that choices are not influenced by nature, otherwise there would be no Free choice, just an accordingly fixed reaction.

[bondserv]

Also,

1 Cor 7:12-15
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. ...

I realize in verse 12 that Paul declares he is speaking for himself, not necessarily for the Lord (So I included it in my post), but this passage seems applicable in some way. What is your take here?

[bondserv]

Twenty years old was representative of all of old Israelites who died off, and were told they could not go into promised land. The sum of their children, meant to count them.

I have always taken that passage to mean that anyone who departed Egypt twenty years or older would die in the wilderness (save Caleb & Joshua who were over twenty, but faithful to God's command when spying out the land).

[lupie]

One thing I believe Catholics AND Baptists agree on is that baptism is necessary for salvation...age is where they vary.

I don't know of any Baptist church that teaches that. I attended one for years and know many, many lifelong Baptist that can give great apologetics on why that is a false doctrine.

[GraceofGod]

My advice to you is the same I give myself; pray for your children, teach them about Jesus, and trust your heavenly Father. All of this "OMG!, OMG! Where will my children go if something happens to them!", serves no good purpose. (this I think has been the rationale behind some mothers killing their young children!) Don't we know that God loves our children perfectly? They are not really OUR children, they are HIS. Why can we not trust our heavenly Father?
Try sitting quietly and from your heart ask the Lord about this. Tell him your fears and pour out your heart. Even if He remains silent on details, I believe He will give you peace. After all, He IS the Prince of Peace!

[GraceofGod]

"suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus, the Son of God.

Jesus got it right. Everyone else, is just expressing their opinions. No matter how many letters you add to their name. M.Div. Ph.D. Rev. of Fr., "master of the universe" TRUMPS doctrinal pablum.

If Jesus got it wrong, we are all in deep doo doo...

AMEN!

[Old Mountain man]

We are only accountable for our own sins, not the sins of Adam.

[connectthedots]

Anyone who thinks children cannot sin has never had a two year-old.

[aruanan]

I have a question about something that has rocked me to my Baptist core. I am also going to address the question to our pastor next week. My eight-year old brought home a study guide for parents to assist us in the "nuturing the faith of your child". It states: "Children are sinners and the implications are eternal" - "Our children are helpless sinners who deserve God's wrath".

Thank the rationalism of that lawyer John Calvin for what he's done to scripture.

[Kackikat]

This is from first post:

"14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

Exo 14:29-30
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.


Yes, it was those who had murmured against him...who should not go into promised land except for Joshua and Caleb..but I don't believe it to be example of accountability, only that GRACE extended to those under 20, over 20 being a higher milestone of maturity.

[Kackikat]

Jesus always preached baptism, and he himself was baptised of John the Baptist.

[aruanan]

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. --Psalms 51:5

This, however, doesn't state that you were born sinful unless you've already assumed a few things that are as yet undemonstrated. To counter this, there is what Jesus said about children and sin:

"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"
--Matthew 18:6&7

[roylene]

I am truly sorry you are confused..there is the age of accountability. We are all sinners, yes even children.
We must become like 'children' because we tend to intellectualize God..ie: can He make a rock so big He can not pick it up.
My suggestion is that you spend some quite time, in reflection and ask God to reveal to you His Divine plan for salvation and peace and not worry what others might say regarding this issue. Be at peace God loves us all and wants us to know Him intimately.
May His peace be on you my brother in Christ. Do not go to others first when it is God who should be first..

[Lexinom]

We are only accountable for our own sins, not the sins of Adam.

If this is true, to wit, that we cannot be held accountable for Adam's sin, then how on earth can God hold Christ accountable for the belivers' sins?

Rom. 5:17 (KJV) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

[RnMomof7]

Of course children are sinners. They steal and they lie and they manipulate.

I always tell this story as an example.

I was baby sitting my 3 granddaughters.

The 6 year old and the 4 year old could stay up until 8, the not quite 2 year old had to be in bed an hour earlier.

So I took her to her crib, kissed her good night and covered her up

Ten minutes later there was crying from the room, "I have to go pottie" So I took her to the bath room. Once back there she said she needed a drink, so I got her a drink .

A few minutes later there is a cry "grandma my arm hurts" . I return to the room A few minutes later she cries" Grandma my leg hurts" . I return and check and she is fine

I kiss and cover and go back to the living room

One more time there is crying, "grandma my tummy hurts" , so i ask "what should I do to help your tummy ?

Can I get up and lay in the living room ?" she asks . Sure I say.

I take her to the living room, and lay her in a large chair in a corner . I cover her up/ "Grandma " "Yes" I answer . "I can not see the TV from here" "I know" I answer :>)

This baby has lied and manipulated to get what she wanted. She knew she was lying and she knew what she wanted. She was born a sinner . She is not a sinner because she sins, she sins because she is a sinner in need of a Savior.

Now consider your quotes.

Whatever happened to "Except ye be converted, and BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 18:3 ).

This is not speaking of sinlessness. There will be none that are sinless in heaven . All in heaven will be sinners saved by grace.This speaks of a heart attitude, a trust and dependance

And. "Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Mark 10:13-14).

Jesus was telling them not to restrain the children from coming..not that they DESERVED to come, but that we should in no way hinder them ..

We are not to forbid our children from coming to Christ because we think they do not need to, or they are to young, or that they are saved because they are "innocent"

NO NO

They are sinners in need of a Savior. We are to present the gospel to them. We are to bring them to Christ

There are not 2 classes of people in heaven, those that deserved it based on their sinlessness and those that are there because of Gods mercy .

There is only one type of person in heaven , one saved by the grace and mercy of God

Children are saved the same way adults are, by a merciful God... not because they deserve it

[RnMomof7]

"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!" --Matthew 18:6&7

Hey long time no see !

Your quote does not respond to the question. This is about children that already believe (that are saved)

[RnMomof7]

Man was made in the image and likeness of God. The concept and claim of original sin contradicts that.

ADAM was made in the image of God .But after the fall the image was marred , man was no longer perfect and "good"

So who's image are the children of Adam made in? Why Adams of course .

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

[RnMomof7]

Thank the rationalism of that lawyer John Calvin for what he's done to scripture.

Do you have scripture that says children are sinless and innocent until an age of reason?

What if I can prove to you from scripture that children even in the womb are sinners? Would you think maybe Calvin is right?

[aruanan]

Your quote does not respond to the question. This is about children that already believe (that are saved)

Hey, how are you? Anyway, he was speaking about children in general. He wouldn't have been talking about a separate class of children who believe as though the mere believing were the distinguishing characteristic or else there would have been no reason in the first place to have referred to converting and becoming like a little child. The natural state of children is to believe and to rely in trust without questioning on folks they believe in. They learn not to do this. They learn (ie., they're taught) that if they want to get what they want they've got to rely on no one but themselves or on their ability to screw everyone else over to get it.

A major error along the way in thinking about sin and the way it was spread was to substantiate it. But as Paul said, sin entered the world and death through sin, in that all have sinned. He didn't say that sin was genetically transmitted, only that all have sinned. The human race is, indeed, sinful and everyone (except One) born into it at some point sins. There is far more to being human than that that is transmitted genetically.