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To: JohnnyM

Job 1.
The very beginning of Job tells us that Job was sinless, and followed the entirety of The Law.

Of course, Job is a literary figure, probably not a real person, so one can read Job as setting out the case of the perfect sinless man (who didn't really exist) and then show him being tormented by the Devil anyway, as a test from God. That was probably the author's point. Whatever his point, and whatever the historicity of Job, Job 1 starts by telling us that Job was sinless.

The parents of John the Baptist were presumably real people, and Luke opens his gospel by telling us in the first chapter that they were sinless.

Anyway, I really don't mean to belabor this, nor the point about Sunday being utterly unbiblical (it is). This thread was about Catholic concepts of Mary. We diverted into questions of Tradition versus Scripture for some reason. Scripture IS Tradition. It is the written tradition of Christianity. Different parts of Christianity use different canons of Scripture, and that selection of what constitutes the Bible in the first place is itself a matter of Tradition.

One of the best argument FOR the adoration of Mary being a good and proper thing that pleases God is neither traditional nor Scriptural but empirical. The Shrine at Lourdes is dedicated utterly to the devotion to Mary, specifically. And there is no other place in all the world where there have been so many utterly miraculous or simply marvellous healings to occur on a steady, consistent basis. There is an international medical examining committee there that collects data and keeps files on these things, and the volume of healings that occur there, including things that are not medically explicable, is staggering. Obviously the healing of the blind, or the recovery of paralytics, or the complete instantaneous remission of cancer and the like, all of which have been medically documented to happen at Lourdes (I encourage you to read the medical reports from the committee, which are available online), are not possible without the grace of God. And obviously if God was OFFENDED at the veneration of Mary - as argued by some - He would not permit Lourdes to be the greatest continual fountain of miracles and marvels visible in our day on Earth. Given that Lourdes exists, given that thousands of cures happen there, given that it is devoted to Mary, and given that faith healings cannot take place without both true faith on the part of the beleiver, and a responding act of grace by God, God clearly establishes his grace over Lourdes (and nowhere else to that degree), and Lourdes is utterly dedicated to the praise of His Mother.

Why does God do this?
We cannot fully say (although we can guess that God approves of those who venerate His mother). But we can say, from the thousands of healings, that God DOES approve of Lourdes.

So, if we cannot sort things out Scripturally on Mary, we can look in our day and see God performing open miracles and marvels in a place devoted utterly to His mother, proving empirically - despite the silence of Scripture - that God approves of the veneration of his Mother. (Can the Devil cure the sick, restore the paralytic, give sight to the blind? Jesus suggested not. At Lourdes those things happen, proving the grace of God here, now, there.)

Given Lourdes, the best approach to Mary if one does not wish to venerate her, is respectful silence. God obviously favors those who venerate His mother, and I cannot imagine that God is ever going to be too terribly pleased with anyone who starts picking on His mom.

Spiritually, the safest approach to objection to Mary is silence. Direct attacks are responded to by God, at Lourdes. And even though Lourdes is not in the Bible, it clearly exists, God's grace is clearly there, and such a visible demonstration of God's living grace should make us wonder, revere, and resist the urge to be divided over the issue of His mother. Nobody ever stored up grace in Heaven with God by picking on His mother. Just let it go. For your own good. Really.


209 posted on 09/22/2004 8:09:31 AM PDT by Vicomte13 (Auta i Lome!)
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To: Vicomte13
"The very beginning of Job tells us that Job was sinless, and followed the entirety of The Law. "

No it does not. Hear is the verse:
Job 1:1 - There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Job 1:8 - The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."

No where in these passages does it say Job was sinless. It said he was a blameless and upright man. These terms to do no equate to sinlessness.

Now lets use another example of a blameless and upright man: Noah. Gen 6:9 - Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Very similar to how Job was described. Now lets check out Gen 9:20-21
20 Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard.
21 He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.

Not exactly the actions of a sinless man.

JM
212 posted on 09/22/2004 8:44:02 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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