Posted on 09/21/2004 7:43:13 AM PDT by Tantumergo
Have you read the above posts? One of the traditions is that St. Joseph was a widower.
excellent post and your explanations have been helpful. God Bless
I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but wouldn't you consider you comment blasphemy? Even in jest?
Actually, Christ predicted it--although if you meant that the Bible doesn't record the event itself, you're correct.
Good question. It has been held since ancient times that she either didn't die, or that she did die but didn't suffer the corruption normally associated with death (remember, even Jesus died). In the Roman church we call it the "Assumption"--i.e. she was taken up into heaven. The Greek and other churches call it her "Dormition", her "falling asleep". But you're right--in any case she would not have had to endure the punishment due to original sin.
Actually, Enoch was assumed into Heaven too (way back in Genesis), so technically others have been taken by God without dying.
No I have not read the above posts. I am currently working directly from the ping section. Yes I do know that tradition holds that Joseph was a widower. I believe that tradition is wrong.
One of my favorite topics. This topic illustrates the difference between bible based Christianity and a tradition based system of mythology. It shows the circular logic of "we are 2000 years old, established by Christ and infallible so whatever we say goes".
Based on?
Only by those not knowing souls who mis-interpret or mis understand - or refuse to learn the faith.
For the most part, it isn't a real big issue. Lutheran's hold to more tradition than most non RC/EO churches, but that tradition is pretty much considered non binding.
Ping. Grow in your Faith. Remember the parable of the sower?
I am no language expert, thank God that was not one of the requirements for salvation.
Based on the fact that I believe this elevated view of "Tradition" is anti-biblical and most of the time contradicts scripture anyway.
Yes, and Job 1 tells us that Job was sinless, and Luke 1 tells us that the parents of John the Baptist were also sinless. They all died eventually (I think we can presume this, even though it does not say so in the Bible).
Theologically, the REASON they died natural deaths was the consequences of original sin, contracted from Adam.
After Adam and Eve, only Jesus and Mary were free of this original sin.
Jesus died sinless, yes, but only because he was killed.
Mary is said by (some) ancient Tradition to have died a natural death.
Obviously that's a different case.
Had Jesus NOT been killed, presumably he would have been immortal.
But why not Mary?
Two possible answers present themselves:
(1) Mary didn't actually die, but was assumed living into Heaven like Enoch and Elijah (and perhaps Moses) before her. (Jesus ascended living into Heaven, but that's a separate case.)
(2) Mary CHOSE to die to return to Her son in His Kingdom. So her death was NOT the result of being human or the effects of the sin of Adam, but a personal choice to fall asleep in God and go to her Son enthroned.
The latter answer does not contradict any ancient Tradition (the former does), and it may have to do as an answer, but I am QUITE uncomfortable deriving my own explanation. Surely there is a traditional answer?
Surely some reader of this board knows that answer?
Yes. :)
This may be a bit esoteric for someone not already thinking in a Marian mindset, but (Genesis 3:15): "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." Granted, there's dispute about the "she" there--some translators feel that the Latin Vulgate is incorrect on this point, but either way, there's some notion about the woman being part of the battle.
I don't think you'd argue that what made the Ark so effective in battle was its contents, not the Ark itself. The Ark was only the vessel through which the power of God flowed.
If Jesus had siblings, then He would have given Mary to them at the foot of the cross, but he gave Her to the apostle John.
Sorry if I am repeating someone else, I haven't read the entire thread.
Tradition is older than Scripture.
Do you have a reference for Luther on that last part, about the bodily assumption of Mary?
No problem. Someone offered a counter to this in this thread, actually. It's very interesting.
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