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SSPX FRANCE REPORTEDLY IN CHAOS
Envoy Magazine ^ | September 18, 2004 | Pete Vere

Posted on 09/20/2004 7:38:56 AM PDT by NYer

Taking a break from judging annulments earlier today, I visited a number of French traditionalist websites.  I also had the opportunity, yesterday, to speak with a friend of mine who is a canonist from France following the situation as well as another friend who keeps tabs on the traditionalist movement in both the English and the French speaking world.  Everyone agrees -- the situation has degenerated into total chaos, as nobody knows exactly what is going on with the highly-respected French SSPX clergy that have criticized what they see as the SSPX's growing rigidity. 


It does appear that Rome has refused to take competency over the case, more-or-less stating that the SSPX denied Rome's jurisdiction over them when Lefebvre carried out a schismatic act through the 1988 episcopal consecrations.  Beyond that, Rome refuses to comment other than to say, "Our door remains open for their return to full communion."

Beyond that, the rhetoric, polemic and accusations suggest that indeed civil war is breaking out among the laity and clergy within the SSPX's French District.  In fact, two websites have now popped up that are exclusively devoted to tracing all the news stories associated with the crisis.  What I find personally find interesting is that every news report, commentary, polemic, etc... mentions Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion from the SSPX around this time last year.

In the months that followed, it appears that the SSPX more-or-less tried to sweep Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion under the rug.  But in so doing, even the regime currently in charge of the SSPX had to admit the important role played by Fr. Aulagnier in the founding of the SSPX.  This is probably why the SSPX appeared to hope the issue would go away.

Yet it is also well-known that Fr. Aulagnier was a close friend of Fr. Laguerie as well as Fr. de Tanouarn -- two of the SSPX's leading priests.  (As Fr. Laguerie's assistant, Fr. Henri appears to have just happened into the situation).  It is also well-known that a number of French (and some American) SSPX priests were not happy with Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion.  Therefore, I will venture to guess that the current SSPX chaos is the effect of Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion coming back to haunt Bishop Fellay.  As for the particular details, this is the first time in almost fourteen years of being a traditionalist that I find the fog of war too thick to reasonably discern what is going on.  (What I find even more troubling is that behind the scenes, under the flag of truce, other SSPX and traditionalist commentators with whom I am in contact have admitted to having the same problem.)

So if I can end on a personal note to the moderate SSPX clergy and their supporters who follow this blog, I'm more than happy to abide by the flag of truce and keep you guys in prayer while you fight whatever battles need to be fought, but I honestly cannot make heads-or-tails of what is happening. But like Rome has said, the door is open for you to return.  I will pray that God gives you the necessary strength to walk through it.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: france
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To: Fifthmark
God wills that no man be damned.
Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin ... Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present--namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future--namely, eternal punishment. (St. Thomas, Summa theologiae, I q. 23 a. 3)

361 posted on 09/22/2004 3:58:20 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: thor76
The suppliant must be willing to be totally stripped of all - mind, memory, everything......like a junk car, and completely rebuilt from the ground up. Only then, can he see with the light of truth....only then can he see, with the gifts of KNowledge, Wisdom, and Understanding what is reality.

Christ had the power to make the blind see when he walked the earth. He still does. But like that blind man, he must fall at the feet of Christ, forsaking all else, risking all, and beg to be made whole.

Such restoration is given freely by God - but you must want it with all your heart and soul, for "it is awful to fall into the hands of a loving God".

Truer words were never spoken. Excellent insight thor.

362 posted on 09/22/2004 5:01:35 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah (lex orandi, lex credendi)
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To: thor76

YOu are right it is those who are the enemies of our sacred traditions which conservative and traditional Catholics should unite and fight against as we are in a spiritual battle against principalities and power we need to pray.


363 posted on 09/22/2004 5:04:39 PM PDT by pro Athanasius ("The Catholic faith is not a politically correct sound bite.")
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To: gbcdoj

"The problem with that argument is that Paul VI and the Consilium both strenuously insisted that the sacrificial meaning of the Mass remained intact."

Not true. They did just the opposite, then backtracked and re-wrote the General Instructions to the New Mass, changing the Protestant emphasis into something more Catholic-sounding, sprinkling the norms here and there with words such as Propitiation and Sacrifice--but keeping the text of the liturgy itself intact and keeping the emphasis on the Meal aspect.

But as Ratzinger himself has admitted at Fontgombault, "the notion of the sacrifice of the Mass greatly lends itself to misunderstandings." And he admits further: "[Modern Man] can no long imagine that human fault can wound God, and still less that it would require an expiation equal to that which consititutes the cross of Christ." And he rejects the notion of a sacrifice which includes immolation of the Victim: "In what does sacrifice consist? Not in destruction, but in the transformation of man."

This is the theology of the Paschal Mystery which opposes the clear notion in Trent of a real sacrifice of immolation. Yet as Trent says: "He instituted a new Passover, Himself to be IMMOLATED under visible signs by the Church through the priests, in memory of His own passage from this world to the Father..."

The rejection of Trent explains the abhorrence of the old Mass by modernist liturgists. As Ratzinger has said: "A sizeable party of Catholic liturgists seems to have practically arrived at the conclusion that Luther, rather than Trent, was substantially right in the sixteenth century debate...One can detect much the same position in the post-conciliar discussions on the priesthood." He refers also to those who repeat Luther’s view that it is, "the most appalling horror and a damnable impiety to speak of the sacrifice of the Mass".

He concludes: "It is only against this background of the effective denial of the authority of Trent, that the bitterness of the struggle against allowing the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missal, after the liturgical reform, can be understood. The possibility of so celebrating constitutes the strongest, and thus (for them) the most intolerable contradiction of the opinion of those who believe that the faith in the Eucharist formulated by Trent has lost its value."






364 posted on 09/22/2004 6:41:33 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
Not true. They did just the opposite

Then why were so many of the traditional offertory prayers retained? Remember, as you have pointed out, that the liturgical texts remained intact (since the doctrinal problems were mainly within the General Instruction). You simply can't get around the fact that the GIRM opens with a solid affirmation of Trent - of the Sacrifice of the Mass and of Transubstantiation. Nor can you get around the fact that the liturgy is clearly sacrificial.

Re: Ratzinger. For one thing, Ratzinger's theology at a private conference is not determinative of the meaning of the Missal. You are taking him out of context in any case - he ends the conference with:

Trent did not make a mistake, it leant for support on the solid foundation of the Tradition of the Church. It remains a trustworthy standard.

What do the opinions of a "sizeable party of Catholic liturgists" have to do with the meaning of the Pauline Missal?

365 posted on 09/22/2004 7:35:07 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: gbcdoj

How have the Offertory prayers been retained? What text do you refer to? The Offertory prayers have been eliminated. What you have in its place is an offering of gifts, works of human hands, etc. That is not an Offertory, it is the saying of grace before a meal, so to speak, little else.


366 posted on 09/22/2004 8:32:49 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: gbcdoj

"What do the opinions of a 'sizeable party of Catholic liturgists' have to do with the meaning of the Pauline Missal?"

Everything. They reflect the thinking of Bugnini's committee which shaped the New Mass. The New Mass, moreover, is incompatible with Trent. Hence the vitriol directed at the ancient Mass which, affirmed by Trent, is a living rebuke of Bugnini's fabrication.


367 posted on 09/22/2004 8:39:17 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
How have the Offertory prayers been retained? What text do you refer to?

1970 Missal Prayers Super oblata, with Commentary

Take a look at that link - you'll see a lot of the prayers super oblata in the Bugnini-produced Missal are taken directly from the Secrets in either the 1962 Missal or one of the other ancient western missals. In the Gregorian Sacramentary the ONLY offertory prayer was the Secret. The rest were all added later, after the eighth century. It follows, therefore, that the Secret/super oblata is all that is necessary to express the offertory idea.

368 posted on 09/22/2004 8:57:38 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: ultima ratio
Everything. They reflect the thinking of Bugnini's committee which shaped the New Mass.

What is the proof of that? Why does Ratzinger (one of the "progressives" during the Council), not reflect the thinking of the committee?

369 posted on 09/22/2004 8:59:25 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: gbcdoj

Ratzinger does reflect the committee. As I have noted, he does not believe that an actual immolation takes place. To him the sacrifice involves no destruction but celebrates man's transformation. For more on this cf: "Considerations on Cardinal Ratzinger's Fontgombault Conference" by Fr. Patrick De la Roche, The Angelus, April 2002.


370 posted on 09/22/2004 10:18:42 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: gbcdoj

The only Offertory prayer may have been the Secret at one time--but all else affirmed the propitiatory sacrifice. You can't isolate a part from the whole. What is grotesque about the Novus Ordo is just this sort of practice--pretending the Novus Ordo is no different from earlier Masses in its meaning. But this is not true. Here is the Novus Ordo prayer--the offering of the gifts:

"Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through Your goodness we have this bread to offer which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life."

Nothing about the spotless Victim about to be sacrificed for our sins. No Judica me psalm recited by the priest at the Introit to underscore our need for expiation. It's just, "Thanks, Lord for the bread. Thanks for the wine." Big deal. Nothing could be more banal, more prosaic. It's a mere blessing before a Meal--which is the whole point. The celebration is of a memorial meal in the Protestant fashion--and at a table, not an altar.


371 posted on 09/22/2004 10:46:31 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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Comment #372 Removed by Moderator

To: Fifthmark

Fair enough. A misunderstanding it is.


373 posted on 09/23/2004 8:13:22 AM PDT by BlackElk ( Draft Charlie Rangel and Ted the Swimmer)
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To: ultima ratio

Another repeat of all your usual and ineffectual rationalizations in favor of the dead archschismatic and his work.


374 posted on 09/23/2004 8:19:56 AM PDT by BlackElk ( Draft Charlie Rangel and Ted the Swimmer)
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To: ultima ratio; ninenot; GirlShortstop

Not only that but some close to him suggest that he may have bad breath, too! Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!


375 posted on 09/23/2004 8:22:03 AM PDT by BlackElk ( Draft Charlie Rangel and Ted the Swimmer)
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To: BlackElk

It bears repeating. You're pretty dense. It takes several applications of truth before anything sinks with pope-worshipers.


376 posted on 09/23/2004 9:25:33 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: BlackElk; ninenot; GirlShortstop

My, how witty. No wonder you've pinged your admirers.


377 posted on 09/23/2004 9:28:21 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
From ancient times a distinction has been made between the Apostolic See (See of Peter as Lefevbre puts it) and its actual occupant: between sedes and sedens. The object of the distinction is not to discriminate between the two nor to subordinate one to the other, but rather to set forth their intimate connection. The See is the symbol of the highest papal authority; it is, by its nature, permanent, whereas its occupant holds that authority but for a time and inasmuch as he sits in the Chair of Peter. It further implies that take supreme authority is a supernatural gift, the same in all successive holders, independent of their personal worth, and inseparable from their ex-officio definitions and decisions. The Vatican definition of the pope's infallibility when speaking ex cathedra does not permit of the sense attached to the distinction of sedes and sedens by the Gallicans, who claimed that even in the official use of the authority vested in the See, with explicit declaration of its exercise, the sedens was separate from the sedes.

* Every sane individual knows Lefevbre was calling the POpe an antiChrist.

378 posted on 09/23/2004 1:21:38 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: CatherineSiena

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/defensem.htm


379 posted on 09/23/2004 1:25:54 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: gbcdoj

thank you;informative post. God Bless


380 posted on 09/23/2004 1:27:27 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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