Posted on 09/13/2004 11:03:24 AM PDT by Choose Ye This Day
SUBVERSIVE INTERVIEW - DALLAS WILLARD PART 1
Dallas Willard has spent the best part of his life getting down to business. That has meant stepping down from a pastorate involved in trying to attract people to his church, and immersing himself into the culture around him armed only with a Bible and a desire to make his faith more real.
Having spent over 30 years as a professor of Philosophy at USC, Willard has become known as something of a controversial figure in Christian circles. Not for any overtly radical teachings or practices, but simply because of his call for the Church to return to more Christ-centered living and practice.
In short, Willards ideas confront the modern-day theological practice of atonement-centered Christianity rather than disciple-making Christianity. In this first installment of a three-part interview, RELEVANTs Keith Giles speaks candidly with Willard about these two opposing theologies and the state of modern Christianity today.
[RELEVANT MAGAZINE]: What are the most critical challenges facing the modern church?
[DALLAS WILLARD]: In a way its very simple. The greatest challenge the church faces today is to be authentic disciples of Jesus. And by that I mean theyre learning from Him how to live their life, as He would live their life if He were they. So that means, whatever I am, whoever I am, I take Him into my whole life as my Lord. Lord means that Hes my teacher. Another way of putting this is to say that our greatest challenge is to recover Jesus the Teacher. You know, if you dont have a teacher you cant have a disciple. Disciples are just students. Unfortunately, its a long and convoluted story, but roughly over the last two hundred years, Jesus as Teacher has simply disappeared. Whether Liberal or Conservative, it doesnt make any difference. This is the unfortunate fact, and it lies at the foundation of the efforts of many people today to find a different form for the Church.
What has happened is Church ritual has replaced Discipleship. Thats the really big issue. How to recover Jesus the Teacher? That would mean, of course, that weve decided now that were actually going to do what He said. So then we would need to know how. The Church then would have, as their big project, to make this the center of what they do as churches. Ive remarked on this in the last chapter of my book, The Renovation Of The Heart, about the local congregation and the spiritual formation of the Believer.
[RM]: So, are you saying we have a crisis of follower-ship rather than a crisis of leadership?
[DW]: Now youre going to get me in trouble. (Laughs) The fact of the matter is this leadership thing has just gone crazy. It is actually not from the Church, its a carry-over from the Culture and its one of the many ways that the modern church has bit and swallowed the contemporary culture whole. It is just shameless the way we go on about leaders and various kinds of figures. Youre absolutely right, its a crisis of follower-ship and of leaders themselves living as disciples and inducting others into discipleship, not to them, but to Christ. Its just heartbreaking to see this thing on leadership and how this has progressed.
You remember Jesus saying, Call no man Master, you have one Master. Dont call anyone Teacher, dont call anyone Leader or Doctor or whatever. Weve got a leader, lets follow Him!
[RM]: The idea of Discipleship; acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Teacher of our lives; is daunting for most. Jesus seemed to suggest that one cannot be His disciple without laying it all down for Him and taking up ones own cross. Thats not a very popular idea in todays culture. Have we misunderstood what it means to follow Christ?
[DW]: Well, I dont think weve misunderstood Him. The real problem is not misunderstanding Him, but its setting it aside as a requirement for salvation. Now, a few decades ago you had leading speakers for Christianity across the nation who would say things like, Were not supposed to follow Christ, were supposed to trust Him, and that meant not to trust His leadership and teaching, but to trust His death on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.
What has basically happened is that the meaning of Trust Christ has changed. It has come to no longer mean trusting Him; it meant trust something He did. In that way, one theory of the atonement was substituted for the Christian Gospel. The results of this are that (now) discipleship is not essential, and people are not invited to become disciples. So then now you have crazy hermeneutics like, The Gospels are for the Millennium, but Pauls gospel is for us today. This is just taking possession of the whole country on the conservative side. On the liberal side something different is happening. Its amazing to see how every system within Christianity took a route that said, You know, you dont have to do that. That is not for you to follow. You just have faith in the death of Christ on the cross or have faith in Jesus as a great social prophet or whatever. But its amazing to see how universal it was. You have to suspect that there was some spiritual force in back of this. The 1800s and the 1900s were devoted to putting Christ away and saying, All those things He said that sound so tough isnt for you. That looks like Works Righteousness, thats not Grace.
[RM]: Are we in a state of Grace Overload today? It seems its all about easy forgiveness and a mental agreement of the death of Christ on the cross for our sins is where it all stops.
[DW]: Thats it right there. Ive heard leading speakers in the last few years say on their television broadcasts that Grace is only for guilt. Now, theres nothing more clear in the New Testament than that this is not true. But, this whole picture was developing in a way so that Grace was firewalled off from ordinary life and couldnt get through. This misunderstanding of Grace as a mere transfer of credit just totally destroys the teaching of Grace in the New Testament. Grace, as its taught in the New Testament, is God acting in your life and thats why, for example the great passages like 2 Peter 3:18, Grow in Grace and in the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ you cant do that if Grace is just for guilt. The only way you can do that is to get more guilty.
[RM]: Lets sin so that Grace may abound?
[DW]: If you just do inductive Bible study on Grace youll see that Grace is for life. We wouldve required Grace even if we had never sinned. So Grace is God acting in our lives.
[RM]: Ive noticed that in Ephesians, the famous verse that says were Saved by Grace, and not of yourself lest any man should boast is immediately followed by the statement that were saved by Grace in order to do good works. Most of us stop at the first part and never move on to the second part. We still have this idea that God doesnt actually expect us to do any works.
[DW]: Actually He might get kind of worried if you did. Thats Ephesians chapter 2, verse 8 and what people dont understand is thats not even the end of the sentence. But, its the end of their doctrine. So now, this heavy hand of this misunderstanding of Grace simply shuts off Gods activity through His kingdom presence in the lives of individuals. Thats one reason why the statistics on Christians generally dont differ from the statistics on non-Christians. Were not living a different life.
[RM]: I had a conversation with Jim Wallis in a previous column and his point on this subject was that Christians in the early church were living lives counter to the culture of the day. This is why Peter exhorts the Christians of his day to Be ready to give an answer, a reason for the hope that lies within, because he was aware that the lives of those believers would prompt such a curiosity. The problem with modern church is that were busy throwing answers at people who have never thought to ask the question. Our lives look just like theirs so theres never a reason for them to wonder about why were different.
[DW]: Jim is right on in that statement and I would just add that the context of this text is one where Christians were suffering joyfully. Thats the context where people will say, Where do you get this joy? How do you do this? and then you can explain it to them. But now we have sort of the Bully-Boy Apologists who use that verse and it might be paraphrased, Be ready to give an answer to questions no ones asking.
SUBVERSIVE INTERVIEW - DALLAS WILLARD PART 2
In our second installment of a three-part conversation with author and professor Dallas Willard, we discuss the taking up our cross, the irrelevant church and why doctrine and tradition have crippled believers on both sides of the issue.
[RELEVANT MAGAZINE]: Let me ask you this. I have been reading through the works of A.W. Tozer and Charles Finney and I am amazed at the drastic contrast between these men and their teaching as compared to the seeker-friendly sort we hear today. Its a shock to my system. Christianity seems to have lost that power to communicate that Jesus was right on in what he was teaching. The proof should be in the lives that we live day-to-day. Lives that are different from those in the world around us. Since were not living a life thats different, the Gospel has lost its power.
[DALLAS WILLARD]: Well, its lost its power because its no longer intelligent. I recognize that the Spirit has to work. And none was better than Finney in understanding the relationship between the Spirit and the Word. But when you read his directions you sense the incredible intelligence in this fellow. By the way, thats true of Tozer and Wesley and Jonathan Edwards, and all of these people. As intelligent men they were capable of addressing issues clearly and that is what you do not hear today. The level of intelligence in our sermons, the abysmal story telling that you hear constantly is just hopeless. The power that comes through the Bible itself, which is the most intelligent book ever written, is lost. If we didnt just go, like youre mentioning in the passage in Peter, to go and get a verse to endorse what we think we want to do, and if we read it with our intelligence and dependence on the Spirit of God then we would come out with what youre hearing when you read Tozer. The same thing is true with C.S. Lewis. What comes through with all of these people is that they speak with such force because what they know what theyre talking about. That is not something that is opposed to the power of the Spirit, thats what the Spirit would lead you into if you would ever open yourself to God and become His disciple.
[RM]: Its not a very popular thing to say, Were passing out crosses today, come and die to yourself!
[DW]: Its unheard of today. The meaning of the Cross, the meaning of death to self, all the things Tozer and, in his own way, Finney, and certainly Wesley, all understood this. That isnt heard today.
[RM]: Its very sad and a lot of young Christians today are saying that church is irrelevant and they dont get anything out of it. Some are leaving the church, but others are asking the question, What does it really mean to be a follower of Christ?
[DW]: Thats right, and their points about irrelevance are, generally speaking, absolutely right on. My way of putting this, as I mentioned earlier in my last chapter of Renovation Of The Heart, is simply that the churches dont do what Jesus asked them to do. Theyve got all these other things and their main problem is distraction. Theyre distracted from the main thing and theyre thinking about their tradition or about being really Baptist or Catholic or what have you, and the truth of the matter is, Who cares? Thats what the young people are sensing. In many respects theyre turning to the more High Church models where you have a non-leader emphasis, where you have a person who is basically does rituals and there are wonderful, rich words there and so on. Many others see through that too because that is just as empty as the other, except for those wonderful words, which if you listen to, they will do a lot for you. But of course you dont have to go long before you discover most people are not listening to those words, theyre just going through the ritual.
I think the hope, the great hope, on these young people, and its extremely important that they not be lead into over-reaction and simply become negative and loose the whole thing under phrases like post-modernism because there is no Gospel of post-modernism. Post-modernism is basically of liberation which might set you free to go into something right, but it is not itself the Gospel, or a form of life even. Its amusing for me to see, as I travel around, for people to try to do something that would be called post-modernism, but there isnt anything like that. You just do kind of funny things and maybe it helps a little bit, but the important thing is that instead of going in that direction that they do what you have done and turn to Finney and Tozer and these other folks.
[RM]: My feeling is that what is lacking for these young people who sense this unrest and unease about their faith is that there is no one for them to look to who is actually living this sort of discipleship out, or even teaching about it. The most fascinating thing to me is that, for a modern Christian, the most radical thing one could possibly do would be to simply read the words of Jesus and then go and do exactly what he says to do.
[DW]: Thats exactly right.
[RM]: And if people did do that theyd be looked at by people in the Church as if they had two heads.
[DW]: And God would come down on them, they would be blessed and prosper, just like people who have done this at every period in the history of the church have been blessed and prospered and the Kingdom of God has come. But thats the one thing that the whole culture and system around them is designed to keep them from doing. Most of this is theology. Its the bad theology that is the main block because the people who will resist them and not think that they have anything to say are the ones who have a theology that reinforces their rejection. Thats the same thing that was true in the day of Jesus. He said, If you can believe Moses you would believe me and its a recurring thing that happens when people get absorbed in their self-righteous traditions and their own rituals and they close their mind and they say, Oh, we believe the Bible. They dont believe the Bible. If they did they would do what youre talking about.
SUBVERSIVE INTERVIEW - DALLAS WILLARD PART 3
In this final installment of our three-part conversation with author and theologian Dallas Willard, we explore the finer points of the Gospel of Jesus, what Grace is really all about, and the rise of Vampire Christianity in modern times.
[RELEVANT MAGAZINE]: I think were in a place now where a lot of the modern Church is in rebellion against the old traditions and doctrine and theology, in favor of experience and signs and wonders. A lot of young Christians dont want to talk about things like doctrine and theology because that sounds stale and boring to them.
[DALLAS WILLARD]: This is very unfortunate because, in fact, they are operating on a theology. When you take that move you take your theology and youre unwilling to think about it. A theology is what enforces the attitude that they have towards theology. They mis-identified what theology is and dont recognize its role in their own lives. Its really tragic. Its part of the problem of looking at the traditional church and seeing that it identifies theology with something you do in seminary, and then you come out of seminary and you lead irrelevant churches. So, if thats theology, then we dont need it. Problem is, that is not theology. Theology is just what you really think about God, and if youre going to do that, youd better use your mind and not just let it be a receptacle a catch-all for whatever beliefs happen to be passing by. If you dont do that then you become the victim of your feelings and you identify the old version of Christianity and you walk off with a big Yuck. But you walk off with a set of beliefs about God that are actually going to guide your life and sometimes thats disastrous! Even if you do reject something that is wrong, that doesnt mean that you accepted what was right.
[RM]: Exactly. You havent gone to the Word yourself to base your belief upon.
[DW]: What you need to do is to become a Word worm. You study and you think and you find people who are profitable to read, but the most important thing is to come to terms with the words of the Scripture and to learn to live by them, and you cant do that without theology.
[RM]: There appears to be two camps of thought. One is the idea that just knowing the Word is all thats necessary. You read and study and regurgitate it, but you never actually do anything it tells you to do. The other camp says you should just jump out and do all the stuff that the Word tells you to do, but without actually consulting the Word to make sure youre doing it the right way.
[DW]: Yes, and often, unfortunately, theyre not. The most common thing for that latter group of people youre talking about is that they dont have a Gospel. They should have the Gospel that Jesus had, which is the presence and the availability of the Kingdom right here and now, through faith in Him. But they dont have that and Ive watched group after group and individual after individual just run out of steam. When theyre gone, the people who pick up after them in their place have just lost everything and they are all wandering in a version of a very benign and pleasing Humanism.
[RM]: And theres not much difference between that kind of Christianity and anything else the World has to offer.
[DW]: Actually, there isnt. All you can say for it is that its idealism is high, usually. But so far as being actually able to pull it off, since theyre not operating in the power of the Kingdom, its much less.
[RM]: Todd Hunter had a great quote that I think he might have borrowed from you, where he said that the problem with the modern church is that theyve misunderstood the Gospel of Jesus. He said that the Gospel is not that Jesus died on the cross for your sins so you can go to heaven when you die, but that the Gospel that Jesus preached was the Gospel of the Kingdom. When you say this to people they look at you like youre insane. Of course the Gospel is that you can go to heaven when you die, they say. But the Gospel isnt a one-time event, its a daily participation with Christ in the Kingdom life.
[DW]: Thats right. The Grace of God empowers you to do what you cant do on your own. Grace is unmerited favor, but to say that doesnt tell you what form it takes. The assumption today is that it takes the form of a credit transfer in the books of heaven. Ive heard preachers say that theres absolutely nothing else that happens. So, in other words, your life on Earth is totally untouched by Grace.
[RM]: Well, they are correct in the sense that, if you live life the way theyre living then this is all that happens with Grace.
[DW]: (laughs) Excellent point. Thats what we actually see.
[RM]: Thats as much Grace as theyve availed themselves of because their obedience to Christ has ended at the point of saying that prayer for salvation.
[DW]: Right
[RM]: I think you quoted Tozer a while back in another interview where he suggested that a new heretical thought had entered the modern Christian thought. The idea that people come to Jesus and say, I want some of your blood for the forgiveness of my sins, but I dont have any intention of following you or obeying you, and now if youll excuse me Id like to get on with my life.
[DW]: Those are what I call Vampire Christians. Tozer actually does say that this is outright heresy. He was very clear about this and the dear man was such a Christ-like man that he could do this and get away with it. But, on the other hand, youll have people who will hear this and say, Isnt that pretty? and theyll do absolutely nothing about it.
[RM]: Unfortunately that seems to be a possibility with those who call themselves Christians.
[DW]: It has to come through deep work, I think, the kind of work that youre doing, is perhaps among the most important things to be doing now because you will reach people who are ready to see it. Perhaps theyve already seen it but didnt know what it was and theyre ready to change. What has to happen here is a kind of tidal wave has to develop, and when it does, then people will pay attention and theyll realize that this really is something different. Some will be mad and theyll fight, but others will jump up and down for joy and join you. See, thats what happens if you look at Finney or Wesley with them. Tozer is different, and its an interesting thing to study, he didnt start a tidal wave, but he laid out some books that have nourished the souls of multitudes. It didnt have an effect of making the churches say, We must change. You did see that in Finney and Wesley and there was a great battle and a great effect.
[RM]: Do you feel like were due for another tidal wave like this?
[DW]: Yes, its very interesting that now churches and para-church organizations are beginning to say, We must change. This could be the beginning of the wave. I think probably it would be better if it wasnt focused on just one or two individuals, but it may be that one or two people will arise. But, in the last five years Ive seen large churches, some of whom had been very prosperous as mega-churches, say, This is all wrong. We must do discipleship. That kind of repentance is what is needed to start the tidal wave.
"The greatest challenge the church faces today is to be authentic disciples of Jesus. And by that I mean theyre learning from Him how to live their life, as He would live their life if He were they."
"What has basically happened is that the meaning of Trust Christ has changed. It has come to no longer mean trusting Him; it meant trust something He did. In that way, one theory of the atonement was substituted for the Christian Gospel. The results of this are that (now) discipleship is not essential, and people are not invited to become disciples."
"the churches dont do what Jesus asked them to do. Theyve got all these other things and their main problem is distraction. Theyre distracted from the main thing and theyre thinking about their tradition or about being really Baptist or Catholic or what have you, and the truth of the matter is, Who cares?"
"The Grace of God empowers you to do what you cant do on your own. Grace is unmerited favor, but to say that doesnt tell you what form it takes. The assumption today is that it takes the form of a credit transfer in the books of heaven. Ive heard preachers say that theres absolutely nothing else that happens. So, in other words, your life on Earth is totally untouched by Grace."
Here are the links to Parts 2 and 3. I included them all in the above post.
Part 2 http://www.relevantmagazine.com/article.php?sid=3743
Part 3 http://www.relevantmagazine.com/article.php?sid=3756
I have never read DW before. What one book of his would you recommend if I wanted to get a good idea of what he is about? Thanks...
I would recommend "The Divine Conspiracy." Excellent book.
Thanks. I enjoyed "Purpose Driven Life". I am hooked on John Eldredge right now and have to finish "Journey of Desire" and "Waking the Dead" first, but then I will get myself a copy of "Divine Conspiracy". I've heard of Dallas Willard, of course, I just never realized he was such a prolific author.
I second the recommendation of "The Divine Conspiracy". Willard is a wonderful, enriching writer, who really makes me think.
I'll have to look into Eldridge.
read later
Please forgive the unsolicited PING. I wanted to point this article out to all of you. Dallas Willard is a Christian author/thinker that 'gets it.' He repeatedly says that the main thing wrong with Christianity today is that people don't walk the walk. They're not even taught that they should try to be like Christ--in thought, word, and deed.
Most of the Religion Forum took a pass at this article because, I guess, they don't like discussing how to improve their relationship with God--they prefer bashing other denominations. I've noticed in the past that y'all like discussing what it takes to be a good Christian.
Would any of you care to comment on Dallas Willard's words?
Thanks for the ping. I gave it a good scan and it does seem like he is making some valid points. Too many churches are WAY too focused on being popular instead of being faithful and they've watered down their teachings and have resorted to 'the soft bigotry of low expectation' when it comes to their members actually living the gospel and keeping the commandments.
The flip side is that churches that DO stress conforming your life with the gospel are derided as 'authoritarian' by the other churches.
It can't go on like this for much longer though. Society has become hostile towards religion in general and within a generation I expect only those with a burning testemony of their own will maintain their faith, and you can't have a burning testemony of a gospel you are not living. I think whole denominations will disappear, probably by merging with other diminishing denominations.
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