British Israelism - an expose

David M. Williams' Theological Essays ^ | David M. Williams

[Destro]

Following the death of its founder [Herbert W. Armstrong], The Worldwide Church of God dropped British- Israelism and other unorthodox beliefs in 1995. The Church's officialweb page states: "We have worked hard to inform our own members about where we went wrong," and they apologize for having "taught...erroneous doctrines [like British-Israelism]."

[Destro]

bump

[GeronL]

since the Japanese, too, are Israelites (as "samurai" sounds like "Samaria"

If that is their level of reasoning they would be as scary as liberals.

[Destro]

FALSE CLAIMS AND PROPHECIES BY BRITISH-ISRAELITES

Herbert W. Armstong prophesied as follows. A prophecy about Mussolini: "Undoubtedly, then, the "Beast" who will capture half the city of Jerusalem, fighting at Armageddon against Christ at his Second Coming, is MUSSOLINI, with ten European Dictators, and their armies! It is coming in This Generation!" Herbert W. Armstrong, The Plain Truth, January 1939, p. 4

[GeronL]

Hey.. I remember there was a website that had all kinds of stuff about crazy religions... would you remember it??

never mind I guess.

[Destro]

This may cover it?

Cults: from positive to homicidal faith groups

[Destro]

Oops that is like a lefty religous website but still lots of info. Google is hit or miss sometimes.

[GeronL]

religionone.. religionmatrix... I don't know..

I will definitely read more about this...

[Zack Attack]

It is therefore evident that the terms "Jew" and "Israel" are interchangeable. If Jesus Christ is only "King of the Jews" (the tribe of Judah only) in Matthew 27:37, then He is not the one that is the Messiah.

Scripturally, "Jew" and "Israel" are not interchangeable and one must recognize the context the terms are used in. Jew or Y'hudim can be referring to the descendants of Judah, son of Jacob. It can also refer to residents of the land called Judea, or the people of the southern kingdom, irregardless of tribe of birth. Israel can be referring to persons of the northern kingdom of Israel, yet also to the combined houses of Judah and Israel, as in house of Jacob/Israel.

While Judah received the royal lineage, it was Ephraim who received the double portion blessing of the firstborn, and along with that, it was they who maintained the name of their father, Israel.

There were indeed many who were in the northern kingdom or were of the other 10 tribes, who did recognize the errors of Israel and relocated south in Judah. There is not a perfect division of tribes between north and south.

I do disagree with British Israelism and it's aspects of replacement theology, however there is a much deeper truth to all this. The larger part of Israel has never returned. Their numbers now are not as numerous as the sand of the sea. Most Orthodox Jews today are aware that they are awaiting a lost brother to come home. This is what Messiah Yeshua was speaking of when he gave the parable of the prodigal son.

[Cronos]

since the Japanese, too, are Israelites (as "samurai" sounds like "Samaria" If that is their level of reasoning they would be as scary as liberals.

Another silly one is Saxon = Isaac's son. This completely neglects the fact that, being Hebrew, the proper term would have been bin Yitzhak

[fishtank]

Duke McVeigh Armstrong Smith BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[William Terrell]

One theory against another. Most of this stuff I never heard of.

Many events that happened centuries BC are obscured by time, and so we are left with plausible conjecture. I noticed that there is no more concrete proof in the above than found on the other side.

I'm interested in what became of the northern kingdom. Reasonable extrapolation from Biblical numbers indicates there were millions of them. It is known that they escaped from the Assyrians and there is no evidence that several millions returned to the homeland.

It doesn't ring true to me that they were absorbed by other peoples.

If you're not a believer in God and His word, the Bible, this stuff means nothing beyond a simple anthropological debate. If you believe in God and His word, you have to note Hosea 1:10, 11.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

I find no fulfillment of this prophesy in the Bible or otherwise. There are a number of implications in these two verses that are unavoidable in the plain words.

First, there are, or will be, a huge numbers. World Judaism is probably four or five million. Much has to be added to that to fit the prophecy.

The prophecy mentions two distinct groups, according to old grouping of the northern and southern kingdoms. The were apart, then they got together. They will appoint one leader, presumably from Judah, since Judah is the royal house, and their remnants are the Jews we know today, so a Jew will be the chosen leader.

For the combined Israel to be so vast and populous today, they must have been vastly populous in the time between then and today. Vast population isn't grown on trees; look at the remnants of Judah. They kept their identity and are still represent small numbers.

I doubt very seriously that the Brits replaced the Jews in God's eyes as the royal clan. The Jews are the only remnant of the covenant that we are sure of.

However, there have to a lot more existing, today, and that being true, all must be brothers to the existing Jews, not enemies or vying for the "throne".

Why, in your mind, does there have to be one or the other, mutually exclusive? Hell, for all we know from the shards remaining from ancient history, most of the world's population may be Israelite descended. That'd sure burn up all these strawmen, wouldn't it?

When one becomes emotional about a thing, that means that thing is goring someone's ox. What's your ox, that is to say, what's you stake in this debate? I don't buy it's for cold archaeological or anthropolicial theory. You're much too red in the face.

The fact is that all people that accept Christ and His laws in their hearts are part of "God's chosen people", regardless of whither came they. So what's the big deal? You figure that people will think that the Brits are the read sept of Israel and murder all the Jews?

[Destro]

DNA evidence disproves British Israelitic theory. No DNA connection.

Semites and Indo-European peoples besides having a diff language base also have a diff genetic strain.

[William Terrell]

Ok, then where are the vast numbers of Israel that will fulfill Hosea? By the way, I keep hearing of this genetic thing. Do you have the study handy?

[Destro]

Nothandy but I did post genetic distances on here when this discussion came up a while ago. Sabertooth, remember the link?

[Cronos]

Why, in your mind, does there have to be one or the other, mutually exclusive? Hell, for all we know from the shards remaining from ancient history, most of the world's population may be Israelite descended. That'd sure burn up all these strawmen, wouldn't it?

To say that most of the world's population has some Abrahamic blood is plausible but to say that a specific group (like the English -- they're not too bad, really) are the only ones descended from the Israelites seems elitist and incorrect and not in Christ's teachings of the brotherhood of man.  Spiritually, of course, Christians of all hues are God's people as you correctly state. 

[William Terrell]

I'm not saying that Brit's are the remnants of the northern kingdom. I'm saying it's reasonable and evidentuary to theorize that the NK ended up in Europe.

Maybe the Brits have the preponderance of Israelite heritage. I just wouldn't know, see? There have been myths floating around for centuries. Maybe those myths have some basis in fact. Maybe they don't. Nobody knows.

I'm a Christian and I believe in both testaments of the Bible. I believe when God makes a promise, He keeps it, and thus I'm not able to ignore Hosea, nor the prophecy of the sticks, which says the same thing.

But, there is one thing that intrigues me and the reason I decided to explore the issue. IF it is true that the tribes ended up populating Europe and became the dominant heritage there, what are the consequences on the world stage today?

To me, it gives solid foundation for the assistance to and the protection of the Jews in Israel, with a presumption of a reconciliation of both. That would fulfill the prophecies.

I like that notion. Many don't. To each his own. I still don't see what's so objectionable about that.

[William Terrell]

It's somewhere on the web, I assume. Do you remember who do the study?

[topcat54]

since the Japanese, too, are Israelites (as "samurai" sounds like "Samaria"

If that is their level of reasoning they would be as scary as liberals.

Isn't that like the wacky "sounds like" theology of Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye?

The name Moscow comes from the tribal name Meshech, and Tobolsk, the name of the principal state, comes from Tubal. The noun Gog is from the original tribal name, Magog, which gradually became Rosh, then Rus, and today is know as Russia. In the very interesting book The Late Great Planet Earth, my friend Hal Lindsey presents a lengthy discussion of the identity of these nations. I was so impressed by the accuracy of his sources and his readable style that I obtained permission to quote him at length, with numbered footnotes indicating his sources. (Tim LaHaye, quoted in "But Is It In The Bible?" by Gary DeMar)

[Destro]

It's a DNA based calculator using the Jews as fixed base of reference with DNA % differences to those ethnicities you select. What the website was I don't recall. The links and data were posted on here inside the body of an articleof the same topic.