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To: Unam Sanctam; pascendi

The "infallibly declared" doctrine you refer to does not say that outside the VISIBLE Church there is no salvation, only that outside the Church there is no salvation. The former proposition would contradict the clear teachings of St. Paul and Pius IX. Sorry, your interpretation is simply wrong, and condemned with Feeneyism by the Magisterium.

<So now you want to play games with what the "Church" is, right. Want to talk about "is" and "subsists"? One thing I find quite interesting is that the documents of Vatican II speak much about "the pilgrim Church" and the "People of God," but not at all (although there are allusions to it in one of the documents;perhaps Lumen Gentium) the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant. All Vatican II talks about is the current Church Militant, without of course ever using that offensive word. Next, we have to get into the minuscule dissection of those "imperfectly united" to the Catholic Church through Baptism. Are they part of the Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ? What if they consciously reject doctrines of the Faith and want nothing whatsoever to do with submission to their Catholic Bishop or the Pope? Then, are they still somehow "imperfectly connected"? They have no Sacrament of Penance. This stuff is just crazy. They have changed the entire vocabulary and have based their theology on reinterpreting firm Catholic doctrine and dogma, with a false "postivistic" psychology. One drop of cyanide in a full glass of milk KILLS the person who drinks it. Parts of people who are "imperfectly in communion" with the Church will not go to heaven while other parts of them go to hell. It takes ONE mortal sin, unconfessed, to send a person to heaven.

I do not agree with Pascendi on every issue or every opinion, but there is NOTHING he has written here that puts him outside the heart and body of the Church. Unam, let me guess, you are a Steubenville grad, right?


40 posted on 08/16/2004 8:49:18 AM PDT by Mershon
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To: Mershon
"It takes ONE mortal sin, unconfessed, to send a person to heaven."

You mean to Hell. lol! Man, I should have given you the benefit of the doubt last time; my mistake for sure.
41 posted on 08/16/2004 8:58:44 AM PDT by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: Mershon

I make no judgment on whether Pascendi is in communion with the Universal Church, visible or invisible. I have a hard time reconciling his belief that one must be visibly connected with the visible Church in order to obtain salvation with the clear teachings of St. Paul and Pio Nono, that there MIGHT be instances when those outside the visible Church might be saved through invisible bonds therewith. I have no connection with Steubenville, although I see no relevance one way or another. I suppose you are trying to perpetrate a slur on what would appear to be a perfectly orthodox Catholic institution, demonstrating once again that so-called "traditionalists" appear intent on attacking orthodox Catholics rather than the much larger group of "Catholic" universities infected with dissident modernist ideas.


42 posted on 08/16/2004 9:00:15 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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