Posted on 07/26/2004 1:57:27 PM PDT by Lasher
Would like to know if there are any other Christians out there that have not swallowed Rick Warren's version of the Gospel. I left my "seeker-friendly" Church after much prayer and ponder, and it took several months to make the split. I still must speak with my former pastor about this, so until I do, I will not name my former Church. I have noticed that most who follow the "Purpose Driven" material are emotionally attached to it, much like true Christians are emotionally tied to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Oh, man, you didn't waste ANY time did you! You even started BEFORE your insinuation at #36.
I totally agree! But I bet the significance of that comment escapes many.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer:
Innumerable times a whole Christian community has broken down because it had sprung from a wish dream. The serious Christian, set down for the first time in a Christian community, is likely to bring with him a very definite idea of what Christian life together should be and to try to realize it. But God's grace speedily shatters such dreams. Just as surely as God desires to lead us to a knowledge of genuine Christian fellowship, so surely must we be overwhelmed by a great disillusionment with others, with Christians in general, and, if we are fortunate, with ourselves.
By sheer grace, God will not permit us to live even for a brief period in a dream world. He does not abandon us to those rapturous experiences and lofty moods that come over us like a dream. God is not a God of the emotions but the God of truth. Only that fellowship which faces such disillusionment, with all its unhappy and ugly aspects, begins to be what it should in God's sight, begins to grasp in faith the promise that is given to it.
The sooner this shock of disillusionment comes to an individual and to a community the better for both. A community which cannot bear and cannot survive such a crisis, which insists upon keeping its illusion when it should be shattered, permanently loses in that moment the promise of Christian community. Sooner or later it will collapse. Every human wish dream that is injected into the Christian community is a hindrance to genuine community and must be banished if genuine community is to survive. He who loves his dream of community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.
God hates visionary dreaming; it makes a dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own law, and judges the brethren and God Himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together. When things do not go his way, he calls the effort a failure. When his ideal picture is destroyed, he sees the community going to smash. So he becomes, first an accuser of his brethren, then an accuser of God, and finally the despairing accuser of himself.
Because God has already laid the only foundation of our fellowship, because God has bound us together in one body with other Christians in Jesus Christ, long before we entered into common life with them, we enter into that common life not as demanders but as thankful recipients. We thank God for what He has done for us. We thank God for giving us brethren who live by His call, by His forgiveness, and His promise. We do not complain of what God does not give us; we rather thank God for what He does give us daily... In the Christian community thankfulness is just what it is anywhere else in the Christian life. Only he who gives thanks for little things receives big things.
We prevent God from giving us the great spiritual gifts He has in store for us, because we do not give thanks for daily gifts. We think we dare not be satisfied with the small measure of spiritual knowledge, experience, and love that has been given to us, and that we must constantly be looking forward eagerly for the highest good. Then we deplore the fact that we lack the deep certainty, the strong faith, and the rich experience that God has given to others, and we consider this lament to be pious. We pray for the big things and forget to give thanks for the ordinary, small (and yet not so small) gifts. How can God entrust great things to one who will not thankfully receive from Him the little things? If we do not give thanks daily for the Christian fellowship in which we have been placed, even where there is no great experience, no discoverable riches, but much weakness, small faith, and difficulty; if on the contrary, we only keep complaining to God that everything is so paltry and petty, so far from what we expected, then we hinder God from letting our fellowship grow according to the measure and riches which are there for us all in Jesus Christ.
Of course, at some point I will get tired of casting pearls before you and fending off your tusks.
I think that's where the accountability to a healthy small group--which, it appears to me, Rick Warren is good at facilitating . . . comes in.
Mutual HEALTHY accountability before God and man is greatly lacking in congregations of every stripe.
WELL PUT
I'm probably as anti-denomination as any charitable-to-church Christian you'll find--even and sometimes especially toward the AoG I was reared in.
I believe every congregation is in grave danger of becoming fossilized calcified rigid, addicted to man made doctrines etc. when it's older than about a year and a half.
I prefer non-denominational groups that are healthy, led by humble pastors from healthy families or dysfunctional families who have TRULY worked through their crud.
In post #8 the sarcastic question was asked, "how did the church get along without Warren?"
Well, in a time a few hundred years ago, one could have asked a similar sarcastic question: "How did the church ever survive without Luther?"
It doesn't mean Luther was wrong.
I noticed as I read both old and new testament prophesy of the end times that it looks like there will be both a revival and falling away at the same time. I think it is just possible that it is what we are seeing in the world today. Possibly...
You live in a world where Quix is always right and Rick Warren is the second coming.
You have even gone as far to give credibility to Carl Jung.
True
I ask this question again:
I am wondering, those that think this book is dangerous, to what denomination does your church belong.
And likewise, to those defending the book I ask the same question.
I am seeking to identify any paterns here.
Have often thought of those verses on such threads.
Thx.
People said the same about Jim Jones and David Koresch.
I think it is where they (we) "worship" the morality itself or fall into the trap of being the famous "praying pharasee."
Jesus loved (loves) us all, even in our sins and helplessness. I consider true Christians to be the most free people on the planet. But not free to do evil. Rather, free to do good in spite of our sins, knowing we have been offered the gift in spite of our best (or worst) attempts to "earn" it.
Warren is a flawed human being. His book is not a panacea to Christians, nor is it the work of the devil (at least in my opinion). It is one man trying to do the best and most he can as a Christian and believer in the "great commission." It may turn out he is hopelessly missguided, but I am not seeing it. I saw some very good advice and interpretations of scripture as well as human culture that made me think and pray. That is always a good thing.
The person who chose the title of the thread and his legion of followers, as best as I can recall, was first, 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.
>> People said the same about Jim Jones and David Koresch.<<
They said the same thing about John the baptist.
Matthew 11:18
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
Luke 7:33
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’
I wouldn't expect any additional honest answers to that from the other side. The truth hurts too much and they are usually disinclined to be that exposed, imho.
Of course, they may rebel against my assertions to prove me wrong. That would be wonderful.
I read quite a bit of the material presented against the PDL and I was getting an overall "feeling" that there seems to be a backlash against anything that attacks "tradition."
Don't get me wrong. I didn't see any overt stuff. I just read related material in those sites along with the material to which I was pointed and noticed, after a while, an apparent common thread. The thread is along the lines of "if it aint broke, don't fix it." But they ignore the very fact that social and cultural changes require a church to change the way it reaches people "where they live." Otherwise, a service in the heart of New York could be identical to a service in the heart of the African bush. And that flies in the face of how Jesus and the apostles ministered and spread the word.
The phrase "I have been all things to all men" should be taken seriously.
I STRONGLY agree.
Jesus ALWAYS REACHED TO WHERE PEOPLE WERE without contaminating Himself and then lifted them to Himself and
HIS PURPOSES FOR THEM.
That's not rocket science. But it seems to escape a whole range of . . . fossilized mentalities.
As it did when Jesus walked dusty paths.
And the folks on that side were just as quick to take up stones against the Holy One challenging their fossilized mentalities.
That compulsion often seems evident at such sites and in such generated documents and postings. imho, of course.
I think most of the people on both sides of this issue are sincere, and this is a case of "iron sharpening iron." It needs to be discussed and people will remain on their side or change sides. But the important thing is that we are all really on the same side - Jesus, and him crucified.
I give a lot of slack to the beliefs of other Christians (unlike one of the sites I was directed to), but there are some core beliefs that I believe make you either Christian or not. For starters, anyone who does not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh is ipso-facto not Christian. And if they belive that we can all be gods like Him, they are changing the meaning of the term. Like in The Incredibles, if everyone is super, nobody is super. Yes, that is pointed directly at Mormonism.
Oh no. I mentioned Mormonism. Now this thread is gonna get pulled or frozen...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.