Posted on 07/26/2004 1:57:27 PM PDT by Lasher
"..I praise and thank God that FINALLY there are SOME churches where seekers can explore, investigate The Gospel and corporate Christian expressions of it without running into stuffy, cliquish, pharisee driven, sanctimonious, self-righteous, dead, frozen, hypocritical, harsh, brittle, prickly, sober-faced so-called Christianity."
I think this almost doesn't sound like you mr. quix. but, I think what the people who have a problem with this book are concerned about is the focus, although slight, away from Christ, and toward a people centered Gospel experience. I think that in his effort to make the Gospel sound palaltable to many, he did water it down. This is in my opinion, which that's all we're dealing with here, our opinions. i hate to see your usual good nature and encouragement hit the dirt in the face of someone's objections to this book. I think that in the Body of Christ there are many different gifts, and they all have different purposes. Perhaps the teachers among us are alert to the distortions that are not so easliy seen by others. at any rate.............my .o7 cents.......
Forgot the below:
But being successful and fulfilling your life's purpose are not at all the same issue!
You could reach all your personal goals, becoming a raving success by the world's standard, and still miss the purposes for which God created you. You need more than self-help advice. Jesus Christ once said, "Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self." Mat 16:25 Msg
p. 9
"It's in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone. Eph 1:11 Msg This verse gives us three insights into your purpose
So, which of the Scriptures are "all fluff, no stuff?"
I'm quite calm.
I'm grieved that such a Biblical work so powerfully used of Holy Spirit gets so blackwashed by RELIGIOUS folks considering themselves better than someone so key to winning tens of thousands of souls to Christ and discipling them to maturity.
I'm grieved at your audacity.
I'm grieved at your arrogance.
I'm grieved at your lack of Biblical soundness in your whining.
I think you owe Rick Warren a written confession and apology.
God will extract it from you in His time. Prepare to be humbled before Him about this issue.
I just posted 46 verses. Is that sufficient from the small booklet?
It's about 75% of the verses he used. For such a small booklet--it's FULL OF SCRIPTURE--and Scripture very accurately used.
It boggles my mind that people would DARE to throw rocks at such a fine work and such a man with such an authentic, sincere Biblical heart toward God and man.
Thanks.
It's a fad, fading already. In 3 years, no one will remember it. God's Word will last until Judgement Day. Put your faith in Jesus and read the Bible every day to nourish it. The gates of hell will not prevail against such a faith.
There is no longer a fear of God. God has been replaced with a teddy bear.
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Where do you get that from the following Rick Warren chosen Scripture:
"Anyone who holds on to life just as it is destroys that life. But if you let it go . . . you'll have it forever, real and eternal." John 12:25
or from
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Rom 3:23
or from
"You're cheating on God. If all you want is your own way, flirting with the world every chance you get, you end up enemies of God and his way." James 4:4
or from
"Friends, this world is not your home, so don't make yoruselves cozy in nit. Don't indulge your ego at the expense of your soul." I Peter 2:11
or from
"Jesus said, 'No one can serve two masters.'" Matt 6:24
or from
HOW DOES ROMANS 14:10b, 12 'no longer [engender, faciliate]
a fear of God?
How does Romans 14:10b, 12 offer a "teddy bear?"
instead of the eternal life giving Truth and Word of God?
How is it that where I see the Truth and Word of God, you see a teddy bear?
Are your glasses and biases REALLY THAT different?
BTW, your assaultive insult about my mental health and sanity is read and noted. Thanks for your concern.
Show me where any of his translations in the verses I posted are totally unsupported by the original text.
imho, your broadside is unwarranted and untrue.
I much appreciate your perspective.
Alas, it doesn't describe well my inner reality on the topic. My spirit--I dare say, even Holy Spirit within me is grieved, if not well beyond grieved.
I do NOT see any watering down of The Gospel at all. I'm shocked that rational people would.
Perhaps more importantly than the unwatered down preaching and teaching I find in Warren's materials and organization--he clearly does light-years better at discipling people into PRACTICING THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD IN SCRIPTURE--FAR, FAR BETTER than the average pontificating RELIGIOUS institution etc.
He may choose his words to be more hearable in some cases for some people. But he does not mince words on key points of the Gospel and living the Christian life. How rational people could construe it otherwise is almost mystifying even from a psychological stand point.
I personally think most of the rocks are thrown 98% out of sheer jealousy and carping out of a bad faith heart/spirit.
Rick Warren by the Grace of God gets
tens of thousands of individuals
into Scripture and Christ into them
And Scripture into their lives practiced authentically day in and day out by their meaningful participation in well structured, Scripture focused groups.
I suspect that Jesus' attitude toward all that is exceedingly different from yours.
My (now former) pastor's wife, who teaches a weekday Bible study class, is pretty big on these "flavor of the year" Bible teachers and their books. I would imagine that these Christian authors make a huge bundle of money off these books that are pressed on the church people by the leaders from the top down. She had started "The Purpose Driven Life" as a course of study when I finally had to quit going because I was getting so far behind in my regular work as well as leaving my house a mess and going to the classes for one series of study (which was directly from the Bible, incidentally). I did read most of his book, but I did have to call a halt to catch up on my regular work.
One of the motivation, how-to books I was given as a gift was written by a very popular female Christian author. I never could get into the book. From what I could tell, her biggest problem was a husband who couldn't decide whether or not to purchase a sports car. Perhaps I'm not being fair as I didn't read it through.
It just seems to me that these ladies in the "Flavor of the Year" author's club (both Christian and secular) tend to follow the format of developing an "image", are generally attractive looking and educated to start with, hubbys already make a bundle, they go to the salon for the perfect hairdo and all the extras, dress in the most up-to-date image consultant recommended clothes, make speeches for a fee or "love offering", sign books, and all that jazz. - Perhaps I'm just jealous and being unfair, but I have precious little time to read numerous books every week. I also cannot afford to spend large amounts of money at the big recommended Christian bookstore at the mall.
I finally had to leave that church because the pastor's wife and the pastor got ticked off at me (and others like me) who are not able to be perpetual students in their "classes". He got where he was using the pulpit as a bludgeoning box for his tirades on "class attendance".
I could have enjoyed a true Bible study group with a group of women who had a little true "visiting" time each week instead of having to be proper little pupils for what amounted to two and a half hour lecture classes mostly from one person.
Your assumptions and assertions about the stance etc. Rick Warren has toward the income from the book is entirely wrong.
He and his wife made a decision early to not change their lifestyle if fame or wealth came their way. They live in the same old house and he drives a 4 year old Ford pick up or some such, as I recall.
They live on 10% of their income and tithe the rest. They put the money to great Gospel spreading and community development work with the poor around the world.
I think you owe him an apology.
WOW!
Can you think of a single Biblical case where naysayers in the Bible were
EVER
on God's side of an issue or situation?
Your characterizatioins of Rick Warren's presentation of those Scriptures is
100% untrue.
I suspect you knew that when you posted those words of affrontery to what God is doing through this fine Brother, Rick Warren.
Your characterizatioins of Rick Warren's presentation of those Scriptures is
100% untrue.
Actually, it seems to me you were trying to characterize his whole book at 'all fluff and no stuff.'
Given the vast number of very potent Scriptures as well as his excellent discussion of those Scriptures, I'd say your characterization has been proven wholesale false.
I think you owe him a repentance and an apology.
**I think you owe him a repentance and an apology.**
I know you are wrong.
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From the RDL excerpted booklet WHAT ON EARTH AM I HERE FOR?
--Most readers would recognize the question in the title at the outset as the opposite of "all fluff."
p5 --It All Starts with God--first line, first subheading. It seems to me, that fluff would have been something like: "It all starts with Gamecock's teddy bear."
p5 --next line: It's not about you. Ahhhhhh, perhaps that's the problem. The truth is an affrontery to arrogance. Again, the opposite of fluff.
p5 --"Contrary to what many popular books, movies, and seminars tell you, you won't discover your life's meaning by looking within yourself.
Sounds more like the opposite of fluffery, to me.
Evidently Gamecock prefers that people be deluded by the fluffery of New Agey 'looking within.'
p6 --"You must begin with God, your Creator. You exist only because God wills that you exist. You were made by God and for God--and until you understand that, life will never make sense.It is only in God that we discover our origin, our identity, our meaning, our purpose, our significance, and our destiny. Every other path leads to a dead end."
Perhaps Gamecock disagrees with these absolutely foundational, starkly significant facts.
I consider those lines the opposite of fluff. I believe God considers them rather starkly significant statements by Rick Warren, too.
p6 --"Many people try to use God for their own self-actualization. They want God to be a personal 'genie' who serves their self-centered desires. But that is a reversal of nature and is doomed to failure. You were made for God, not vice versa, and life is about letting God use you for his purposes, not your using him for your own purposes."
Evidently Gamecock considers the New Age seduction of self-actualization to be a bit of fluffery to even discuss. Perhaps Gamecock believes that self-actualization is a wonderful focus since he's so reflexively hostile to Rick Warren's statements.
pp6, 7 --"I've read many books that suggest ways to discover the purpose of my life. All of them could be classified as 'self-help' books because they approach the subject from a self-centered viewpoint."
Obviously more fluffery from Gamecock's viewpoint. I hope he's not deluded that self-centered self-help books are Godly. But, maybe he does. He's soooo hostile to the meaty statements of Rick Warren.
But being successful and fulfilling your life's purpose are not at all the same issue! You could reach all your personal goals, becoming a raving success by the world's standard and still miss the purposes for which God created you. You need more than self-help advice. Jesus Christ once said, 'Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self.'" Mat 16:25
Perhaps Gamecock disagrees with Jesus Christ AND Rick Warren. Perhaps Gamecock believes that Rick Warren's agreement with Jesus Christ and Rick's emphasis of this point of Jesus' to be fluffery.
p7 --"This booklet is not about finding the right career, achieving your dreams, or planning your life. It is not about how to cram more activities into an overloaded schedule. Actually, knowing your purpose will allow you to do less in life--by focusing on what matters most. It is about becoming what God created you to be."
I guess Gamecock would prefer that nonbelievers stay focused on the opposite of what God created them to be. Focusing on what God wants nonbelievers to be must be more fluffery.
God have mercy. The whole booklet is full of such substance as emphasizing what God wants vs what selfish, shallow mankind's carnal appetites want. Perhaps Gamecock thinks that carnality is the opposite of fluffery.
Bearing false witness against Jesus Christ's very effective servant Rick Warren is NOT a Biblical, Christian, Godly thing to do.
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