Posted on 07/24/2004 8:27:07 PM PDT by narses
Isaiah 63:1-6
God's Day of Vengeance and Redemption
Who is this coming from Edom,
from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor,
striding forward in the greatness of his strength?
"It is I, speaking in righteousness,
mighty to save."
Why are your garments red,
like those of one treading the winepress?
"I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the nations no one was with me.
I trampled them in my anger
and trod them down in my wrath;
their blood spattered my garments,
and I stained all my clothing.
For the day of vengeance was in my heart,
and the year of my redemption has come.
I looked, but there was no one to help,
I was appalled that no one gave support;
so my own arm worked salvation for me,
and my own wrath sustained me.
I trampled the nations in my anger;
in my wrath I made them drunk
and poured their blood on the ground."
There is no justification for using the term redemtrix in any way, especially if it's preceded by the prefix co-.
co- prefix [ME, fr. L, fr. com-; akin to OE ge-,
perfective and collective prefix, OIr com- with] 1 : with : together : joint : jointly
2 : in or to the same degree
3 a : one that is associated in an action with another : fellow : partner
b : having a usu. lesser share in duty or responsibility : alternate : deputy
(C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
I'm opposed to the definition of Mary as Co-Redemptrix. It is not scriptural, and runs the risk of elevating Mary to a co-equal status with Her Son.
***If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... ***
Could she have said "no"?
"Could she have said "no"?"
Of course, just as Lucifer could have said Serviam rather than Non Serviam. Why do you ask?
If she "could" have said no, then our salvation hinged on the whims of a young girl, not on a devine plan from our God.
God's plan, in the very beginning, was for this to happen exactly as it did, with no input, no permission, no discussion from a young girl. God foretold what was to be. There could be no other way for it to happen. It was prophesy, not wild guesses.
And? Was Lucifer not part of God's Plan? Is free will not part?
Of course Satan was part of God's plan. Do you think he could act independantly from God? That God is powerless when it comes to Satan? Satan has no more free will than we do. And no, we don't have free will. We cannot, on our own, decide to accept Jesus. God works in us to turn us from sin, to turn us toward him.
Are you Catholic?
Nope, not even close. Presbyterian.
Whew. So you believe that the saved were born saved and the damned born damned?
I believe that all that God called to him from the beginning of the world are saved, and all whom God did not call are doomed to die.
Predestination. Cool. So no matter WHAT I do, I am either saved or not? No need to do anything? No need for either faith or works, if my destiny is Salvation, I'm in, if not, all is vanity anyway, right?
But the thing is, you don't know until God saves you. Is there anything You can do to merit salvation? If so, then God owes it to you. It is no longer a free gift, but a debt. God chooses whom he wants, not the other way around.
And in one sense, it doesn't matter what you do. God will cleanse those whom he want to cleanse, and once he does your desire is to please him. Then is when you make choices about sinning or not. Before that your desire is to sin, period. You do what you desire, not what God desires. It is only AFTER God has taken away your sins do you wish to please him.
Right. I have NO RESPONSIBILITY, none. NO FREE WILL, none.
Need I point out the total lack of Scriptural basis for your odd belief system?
And I can point out all kinds of scripture for your Mariology???????????
Actually, all this has been hashed out by experts, and even if I were to point to all sorts of scripture, which I can, you would just direct me to something else. No, I am not going to argue with you. You have your church, and I have my God. So be it. Love in Christ, Jeff.
PS. If you really want to do study this issue, read the "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther. He gives both his point of view and Eramus'(which is your church's).
Christ or Luther, thanks but I'll stick with Christ.
So will I, and I will stick to the Bible. But it appears to me that you aren't willing to learn, just argue. Read the book, it might open your eyes, or it might confirm your convictions.
And when did I ever say I would chose Luther over Christ? I believe in Jesus Christ as my Saviour, the one and only Lord of my life, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Don't put words in my mouth, nor infer by any means that I do not belive in Christ.
***Need I point out the total lack of Scriptural basis for your odd belief system?***
You will if He has ordained it.
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