Posted on 07/02/2004 6:25:59 PM PDT by xzins
Presbyterians Reject Gay Ordination Plan By LARRY O'DELL ASSOCIATED PRESS
RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) legislative assembly narrowly rejected a measure Friday to allow regional governing bodies to ordain gay clergy and lay officers.
Under the 259-255 vote, the current interpretation of church law forbidding the ordination of gay clergy will remain binding on the church, including on the regional bodies, known as presbyteries.
Conservative Presbyterians had warned that a vote for gay ordination at the denomination's national meeting could cause the largest split in the church since the Civil War, when slavery split the church into Northern and Southern factions.
Opponents of the proposal said a network of 1,300 congregations with 450,000 members was poised to break away. The network, called the Confessing Church Movement, holds as a central doctrine the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman.
Also on Friday, Presbyterians overwhelmingly elected the Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick as "stated clerk" - the chief executive at the church's Louisville, Ky., headquarters.
Kirkpatrick garnered 349 votes, 66 percent of the total, to defeat three conservatives who considered him too lax on enforcement of the church's gay leadership ban. Kirkpatrick was backed by the assembly's nominating committee.
---
On the Net:
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): http://www.pcusa.org/
--
259-255
That's an awfully close vote.
The conservatives should leave anyway.
They vote to not ordain homosexuals, then elect a leader who will not enforce it. They are now in the same situation the ELCA is in. We have a number of open, non-celibate homosexuals serving in congregations and in the national offices and he looks the other way.
But at least they defeated the "local option" plan that Bp. Rogness is floating a.k.a. the "ordination to place" nonsense that PBp Mark "Bill Clinton in an alb" Hanson has long advocated.
Wow, Western Christianity is in disarray! The Catholics quarrelling among Catholics, the Anglicans splitting left and right, and now the Calvinists are but 4 votes away from sanctioning gay elders. It's not a matter of if but when. And the Protestant world keeps protesting by never-ending schisms, now numbering more than 30,000 sects and "denominations."
It is inaccurate to attribute any action of the PCUSA, good, bad, or indifferent, to Calvinism.
I stand corrected. My sincere apologies.
The western churches cooperated with Hitler's and Mussolini's regimes as well, and with dictators and tyrants. In the case of Croatia, it's Catholic priests did more than simply cooperate -- some clergy actually partook in the genocide. How come no one ever mentions that but always goes back to your example?
There is a difference between a split over an imposed political will and an endless schism over biblical issues. When left alone, Orthodoxy remains unchanged and peaceful; Western Christianity, on the other hand, is in a never-ending self-deconstruct mode.
The western churches cooperated with Hitler's and Mussolini's regimes as well, and with dictators and tyrants. In the case of Croatia, it's Catholic priests did more than simply cooperate -- some clergy actually partook in the genocide. How come no one ever mentions that but always goes back to your example?
There is a difference between a split over an imposed political will and an endless schism over biblical issues. When left alone, Orthodoxy remains unchanged and peaceful; Western Christianity, on the other hand, is in a never-ending self-deconstruct mode.
My thoughts exactly. The split in the church has already happened. The conservatives are just compromising their faith. It's time for them to realize it.
I'm not a presbyterian, but am part of a denomination with the same issues. At our recent meeting, we beat back the gay lobby and came out with better than 2/3 in favor of historic Christianity's stance on this issue.
Despite that, the conservative leadership in the UMC is talking about some formula for an amicable separation.
That option is still very much under discussion. I attended a workshop in our synod that was to help us as we go through this study, and that was the conclusion of the presenter. "We have two groups of faithful people with different ways of interpreting the Bible. How can we remain unified in a church body?" Local option, of course! When some of us pointed out to him that the local option was really no different that an out and out "yes" vote, he rather heatedly pointed out to us that what are doing now is essentially local option. Our leadership just looks the other way.
"Bill Clinton in an alb" - lol
As a Calvinist, I must admit that the adherents of Reformed theology often behaved abominably, for instance, Cromwell's genocidal war against the Irish Catholics and the Puritans in Massachusetts brutally suppressing Baptists, Quakers, and other dissenters, not to mention the Salem Witch Trials. No branch of Christianity can claim that they never had adherents in political power who violated the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments.
Paul's statements in Titus 2:9 and his further comments relative to civil authority in Romans 13 (and other comments in Peter's Epistles) indicate that the normal state of Christians is that of obedience to the government. However, we must also recognize that the Bible gives instances of justified disobedience of civil authority. Peter informed the Jewish authorities in Acts 4 that he would not preach the Gospel despite their command that he do so. Jesus Christ Himself twice drove the money changers from the Temple courtyard, an act that was certainly against the law. David fled from the reach of King Saul when it became evident that the latter intended to kill him.
No less than other men, civil magistrates are subject to moral law. Theft is theft, murder is murder, etc., even when done by a man with a badge, a gun, and the keys to the jail house. Nor can a civil authority compel a citizen or a clergyman to assist in immoral activities using the excuse of the Biblical passages on obedience to the law. No Eastern Orthodox priest colluding with Communists, Catholic cleric cooperating with Nazis, or Puritan parson conspiring with Roundheads may justify his sin by saying "The Devil (State) made me do it!"
God Alone is the Lord of conscience.
Now if you only started a Reformed Methodist branch. :O)
"Local option" is like being a little bit pregnant.
Either we roster the GLBT or we don't. If they are on any roster (local, synodical or national), they are rostered, and the ELCA is a sodomite sanctuary.
And realistically, will the GLBT lobby be satisfied with a second class status of less than universal recoginition?
"Local option" is like being a little bit pregnant.
Either we roster the GLBT or we don't. If they are on any roster (local, synodical or national), they are rostered, and the ELCA is a sodomite sanctuary.
And realistically, will the GLBT lobby be satisfied with a second class status of less than universal recoginition?
Absolutely not. And just imagine synod assemblies, youth gatherings etc. where GLBT pastors and lay leaders will be featured, as they already have been in some cases.
Reformed is a word that, unfortunately, does not mean calvinist. Otherwise, all lovers of John Calvin would've voted for Ross Perot and the Reformed Party.
The Reformed Methodist Church is a great name, imho. I would recommend it. AND it could INCLUDE those who subscribe to the George Whitefield branch of Methodism.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.