Posted on 07/01/2004 3:14:45 PM PDT by narses
If attending charismatic "healing" services floats your boat, more power to you, and find God's presence there.
Interesting. Thanks for the firsthand report.
Great report.
Much appreciated.
off to bed with me and my tooth.
Sorry not much energy for a better reply.
This would be the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, another Eastern Rite.
The history of Syro-Malabar Church starts with St.Thomas, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ. It is believed that he came to India in 52 A.D. and landed at Kodungallur on the Kerala coast. He preached the Gospel to the high caste families of Kerala, many of whom received the faith. He established several churches and moved on to the East coast of India. He was martyred near Little Mount, Madras and his body was brought to Mylapore (Near Madras) and was buried there.
CHURCH HISTORY
Then, there is the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church.
In 1926, a group of five Malankara Orthodox Syrian bishops who were opposed to the jurisdiction of the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch in India commissioned one of their own number, Mar Ivanios, to open negotiations with Rome with a view to reconciliation. They asked only that their liturgy be preserved and that the bishops be allowed to retain their dioceses. After discussions, Rome required only that the bishops make a profession of faith and that their baptisms and ordinations be proven valid in each case.
In the event, only two of the five bishops accepted the new arrangement with Rome, including Mar Ivanios, who had founded the first monastic communities for men and women in the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. These two bishops, a priest, a deacon and a layman were received into the Catholic Church together on September 20, 1930. Later in the 1930s two more bishops, from among those who had favored the jurisdiction of the Syrian Patriarch in India, were received into communion with Rome. The Syro-Malankara Catholic Church plays an important role in the educational field in Kerala: in addition to Mar Ivanios College in Trivandrum, the church administers 270 schools and six colleges. It also has 13 hospitals.
St. Mary’s Malankara Major Seminary was founded at Trivandrum in 1983. The foundation stone was blessed by Pope John Paul II in 1986, and the present building was completed in 1989. Theology courses began in 1992. The seminary currently has about 160 students and 30 teaching staff.
This church has also promoted the ecumenical movement in India. The diocese of Tiruvalla owns the St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute in Kottayam, which brings together Catholics and Orthodox of the St. Thomas tradition to study their common liturgical heritage and patrimony. Mar Baselios, the new head of the Syro-Malankara Church, has been a member of the dialogue between the Catholic Church and the two Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions in India since 1988.
An interesting development in this church was the foundation of Kurisumala Ashram in 1958. This is a monastic community based on a strict Cistercian interpretation of the Benedictine monastic rule, the observance of the West Syrian liturgical tradition, and forms of asceticism in use among Hindu ascetics. It has become a spiritual center for Christians and Hindus alike.
There are twelve Syro-Malankara Catholic worshiping communities in the United States and Canada, and five in Germany.
I acknowledge I didn’t attend this service with a pure intention. I was there out of curiosity rather than seeking any type of healing. However I am sure glad I went. What I found was a wonderful Priest at a small out of the way Parish who is committed to his vocation. God Bless him!
"One other note. There was no collection during the service nor was there a request for donations. And I do admit, this surprised me. So what to make of this? IMVHO I don’t believe this Priest is a charlatan."
Yes, not taking money is a good sign. However, he could be working only large donations. And we must remember that there is one other currency that con men often accept in lieu of cash.
I'm not saying this is true; I only mention it because I think caution is warranted in all such cases.
I thought so
However, he could be working only large donations. And we must remember that there is one other currency that con men often accept in lieu of cash.
Oh boy, a conspiracy theory.
I'm not saying this is true; I only mention it because I think caution is warranted in all such cases.
Agreed
"Oh boy, a conspiracy theory."
Huh?
I saw the author interviewed on EWTN I think. Wow. I was riveted (spelling?).
Sorry dsc, the term "con man" struck me as a little over the top.
I do not think they should be doing this.
"Sorry dsc, the term "con man" struck me as a little over the top."
Well, that is one of the three options, isn't it?
Whacko--not authentic but believes he is.
Con man--not authentic and knows he's not.
or
Authentic.
"I do not think they should be doing this."
In considering that, wouldn't the question of whether healings are actually taking place be the most important factor?
That's a whole 'nuther complicated subject. Even if a person is healed, it doesn't necessarily mean it is a result of divine power or intervention.
I wish someone would explain to me if these people are so in need of healing, why are they not encouraged to receive the sacramental anointing which is more widely permitted since Vatican II? Is it too much trouble and less dramatic?
Good observations.
I don't discredit all claims of spiritual experience which may have been just as real as any bodily or thinking phenomenon, so his testimony may have some value. Discernment is required, though, so as not to give too much attention to deceiving spirits.
"That's a whole 'nuther complicated subject. Even if a person is healed, it doesn't necessarily mean it is a result of divine power or intervention."
Yes, that's true.
"I wish someone would explain to me if these people are so in need of healing, why are they not encouraged to receive the sacramental anointing which is more widely permitted since Vatican II? Is it too much trouble and less dramatic?"
I think that leads to yet another complicated subject. It seems--or does it?--that some people can bring about a healing more readily than others. That is, unless it's all deception and illusion, some folks can heal and some folks can't. I don't begin to know why that might be true, except that some folks might be exceptionally holy, or God just picked them for reasons of His own, but if it is true, it would be an answer to your question, wouldn't it?
I don't know if they can or not. Healing is really more about faith and trustful intercession than power, human touching (except sacramentally), and theatrics. The apostles, who definitely had the power to heal, didn't seem to employ slaying anyone in the spirit. They depended on faith, used the spoken word, asking and commanding in the name of Jesus Christ, and made use of what we would now consider sacramentals, such as the handkerchiefs that had touched the Apostle Paul's living body.
I don't know where this slaying in the spirit comes from nor have I ever heard of or met anyone who was healed thereby and have it documented with medical verification, which is pretty hard to come by because no modern doctors likes to lay his reputation on the line. So I guess that has to be worked around somehow.
There are some medically certified cures, certainly more than a handful, that have come about for catholics, but they weren't anything like what we are discussing here.
People who slay others in the spirit are a dime a dozen. Anyone can do it. Women do it, too. You get the power from someone else who has it. Kathryn Kuhlman did the exact same thing in her healing ministry.
I don't know if you meant to, but you dodged my question, "Why do they not use the sacramental anointing now that it has been permitted to be administered more liberally than formerly rather than a non-sacramental anointing?" No one I ever heard of reacted to the sacramental anointing by falling over backwards. Indeed, there have been a few genuine healings in combination with intercession of the saints.
The miracle that resulted in St. Faustina's elevation to sainthood was a priest who was healed by a group praying the chaplet of divine mercy for him. Nobody laid any hands on him, I don't believe, nor in his case, do I know whether or not he received sacramental anointing. It is doubtful that tongues or slaying in the spirit were a part of it. I suppose if the chaplet were prayed in Polish that might give the prayers an extra boost though. But I think it was plain old English that got the job done. It was really a marvelous thing.
I haven't followed up on it lately. I hope that priest is still doing all right.
I don't know either, and I don't know anything about this "slay in the spirit" stuff.
I'm kind of suspicious, because when I was little I was taken to hard core holy-roller talking in tongues and faith-healing churches, and even went to see Billy Graham and Oral Roberts. And I don't remember anything about any "slay in the spirit" thing back then.
When did this "slay" business first emerge?
Nor do I. I followed their ministries somewhat, but there wasn't anything like that until the 60's or 70's. I don't think it was a part of Billy Graham's revivals; like you brought out, it was mainly a phenomena in camp meetings, revivals, etc. I think I read somewhere that the early Methodists got carried away for a time with some of this, but it's been too long since I read it that I can cite a source.
When did this "slay" business first emerge?
I honestly don't know. The first I heard about it and witnessed it was in the mid-70's. It would be interesting to know just who introduced it into this country or how it came about. It happened in Kathryn Kuhlman's healing ministry, but I only read about it, never going to any of her healing services.
The first I really got into it was at Full Gospel Businessmen Fellowship meetings where they were big into tongues and later slaying in the spirit. I didn't have such a negative attitude towards it at the time as I have developed since.
The tongues craze started at a place called Azuza Street on the west coast in the early 1900's, so I've read anyway, and spread from there. I read in a history book that the Russians had some sects of "Holy Babblers", going way back. They would go from town to town and were an offshoot of the Russian Orthodox Church. The mainline church wouldn't have approved.
The Mormons seem to have tongues as part of their credo, but I'm not sure if they practiced it in their earlier history or not. I think they did, but I've read a lot about the Mormons, and I don't remember ever reading about slaying in the spirit associated with them.
Other than what I mentioned above, and there are plenty of gaps in my knowledge about it, tongues and the more bizarre manifestations weren't something that western Christianity practiced since the original tongues died out in the first century. I've never read anything about either tongues or slaying in western history, although they did have the flagellants that wouldn't be looked upon favorably today.
What is really curious about this is that usually conservatives are just that, conservative and would normally shy away from this sort of thing, but here is a good article in the Seattle Catholic that indicates EWTN and various illuminaries in the church like Scott Hahn look upon it favorably and endorse it.
Seattle Catholic - Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement - John Vennari
I thought maybe Vennari was a traditionalist; I'm not clear about that.
Did he see any senators or congressmen?
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