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A visit to Econe
sspx asia ^ | June 20, 1979 | Michael Davies

Posted on 06/23/2004 4:45:59 AM PDT by ultima ratio

A Visit to Ecône

After the Credo Holy Year Pilgrimage I returned to Ecône with the seminarians, travelling on the all-night train from Rome and arriving on the morning of Tuesday, 27 May. The account which follows is my personal impression of Ecône. It will, I hope, convey however inadequately something of the spirit of the Seminary. The train in which we were travelling continued on to France with large numbers of French pilgrims on board.

Tuesday, 27 May.

The train stops at about 10:00 a. m. The whole platform is soon full of seminarians in their long black soutanes. Their fellow pilgrims lean from every window in the train laughing, talking, shouting, gesticulating - some are weeping and smiling at the same time. Everyone seems in the best of good humor - and what a lot of young girls there are! One might imagine that there was a pop-group on the platform! The train begins to move. The passengers lean even further out. "Adieu! Au revoir!" They wave. They smile. They weep. "Merci pour tout - Thank you for everything!" cries one of the girls. "Merci pour tout!" Her farewell is echoed from other windows. Some of the seminarians watch the train as it vanishes from sight; others begin stacking the luggage. I have the feeling I am back in the army again and have just piled out of a troop train; the atmosphere is almost identical. There is a great deal of laughter, and a tremendous atmosphere of comradeship; but, unlike the army, there is no one giving orders. In fact, no one ever appears to give any orders. The seminarians and their professors seem to form a corporate entity - an impression that will be strengthened throughout my stay at the Seminary. Everyone knows what he should be doing, how he should be doing it, and when.

"Come along, we've been invited for a beer." We all troop out of the station to a local restaurant. The seminarians are tremendously popular wherever they go. We can't all fit inside. There are more than a hundred seminarians, about twenty priests, myself, and a young American who will be entering the Seminary in September. Some of us sit at the tables on the pavement. Everything is "on the house."

It is soon time to take another train along the branch line to Riddes; then follows a walk of several kilometers to the Seminary at Ecône. Fortunately a Volkswagen bus is available to take the luggage. We approach the Seminary through extensive vineyards which belong to it and are tended by the students. Manual work forms an important item in their training. Ecône is situated among scenes of breath-taking natural beauty. Great snow-capped mountains rise up on eCred side. A gigantic waterfall tumbles down the mountainside behind the Seminary. The buildings themselves consist, firstly, of a large and very Swiss-looking house - formerly belonging to the Canons of St. Bernard and about three hundred years old. Archbishop Lefebvre had begun his work of priestly formation with a few students in Fribourg. The numbers expanded immediately and this building with the surrounding land was put at his disposal. The influx of new seminarians was soon so great that it was inadequate almost at once. New wings stretch off in all directions and their effect upon the visitor, the British visitor at least, is staggering. I would not have believed that any Catholic institution could be so ultra-modern. Truly, where the buildings are concerned, it is the space-age seminary. But there is no time to look around; lunch is being served immediately. I am taken to the bursar together with my American friend and we are shown to guest rooms in the old house. The rooms are furnished comfortably but simply; nothing useful is missing and everything works perfectly - and what a view from the window! We are asked to come down for lunch at once. The refectory is a huge room, clean, cheerful, and full of light; for there are large windows looking out onto the mountains on one side, and the other wall, alongside which there is a corridor, is made entirely of great glass bricks. I am astonished to find a case for my table-napkin with my name typed on a card inserted into a plastic socket - and I can scarcely have been in the building for five minutes! When I return to my room after lunch there is an identical card >

Every meal begins with a short grace (in Latin, naturally). There is reading from the Bible (which is always in French) and this is heard throughout the refectory by means of a superb amplification system which functions faultlessly. The same is true of a loudspeaker system which reaches every part of the building and the grounds. This is all operated by nuns in the most traditional habits who sit in a room surrounded by the most sophisticated electronic equipment, from which they summon "Monsieur the Abbé This" to answer a telephone call from Germany or "Monsieur the Abbé That" to come to Parlor Number Two where a visitor awaits him. The same system is used to rouse the community each morning in a very gentle manner with a series of soothing chimes. Similar chimes indicate the beginning or end of a lecture, a service in the chapel, or a mealtime.

The meals are simple but nourishing. The food is cooked by brothers of the order in a kitchen that looks like something out of the twenty-first century. It is served by the seminarians, who take it in turns to wait at table. Almost all the work in the Seminary is carried out by the seminarians, including such tasks as cleaning the corridors and stairs; but as these are all covered in thick hard - wearing carpet it is easily done.

When lunch is over it is announced that the community Mass will be at 17:00. In view of the exacting pilgrimage they have just completed, the afternoon will be free. During this time I am shown around the Seminary. My stock of superlatives is inadequate to express the impression it makes on me. The light and airy lecture rooms, the large and comfortable study-bedrooms for the students (the professors have a study, a separate bedroom, and a private bathroom). The library in the newest wing is already well stocked but with row after row of new and empty shelves to allow for expansion. There is a music room with the latest stereo equipment and an extensive collection of religious and classical music: I am pleased to see that someone has been playing Byrd's Mass for Five Voices. There is no television and the students are not allowed radios; nor is smoking permitted in the Seminary.

There are a good number of chapels and oratories but the main chapel is a recently converted barn - a massive structure with walls at least three feet thick. It is divided into two sections, one for the community and one for visitors. The number of visitors wishing to attend the Seminary Masses had grown so much that this new chapel was necessary - the previous one could hardly accommodate the seminarians. At least one hundred and fifty visitors had been attending the community Mass each Sunday. On 9 May, the Swiss bishops had withdrawn their canonical authorization from the Seminary. Canonically it had ceased to exist - in the language of Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-four it could now be described as an "unseminary." The announcement had appeared in the Swiss press on Saturday, 10 May. The bishops had said that, as a result of their decision, no faithful Catholic could continue to support the Seminary ("aucun fidèle n 'a plus le droit de lui accorder son appui"). There was some speculation in the Seminary as to how many, if any, visitors would come for the Mass on Sunday, 11 May. Over three hundred crammed themselves into the chapel - double the normal number and this figure increased the next week.

Just before 17:00 the seminarians file in for their community Mass. I have already referred to my impression of their forming a corporate entity: it is during the liturgy that this impression becomes most manifest. All stand as the celebrant and servers enter. As the Mass begins a sharp tap is heard. All kneel as if one person. Introibo ad altare Dei - Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam - it is as if one person is responding, half speaking, half chanting. I soon discover that Ecône has a liturgical style of its own. Judica me Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta...It is impossible not to apply these words to those who are persecuting the Seminary; to those who will allow practically any abomination to take place during the celebration of Mass, but who are adamant that to begin it with Psalm 42 is a crime crying out to heaven for vengeance! (As the celebrant is now encouraged to add some words of his own at the beginning of Mass, why should he not choose Psalm 42? and if the congregation wishes to say some of the verses, is this not a dialogue? and surely nothing is more praiseworthy than a dialogue in the renewed Church?)

It is not simply the seminarians who seem to be an entity - everything in the chapel blends into an organic whole: the dignified and beautiful altar; the priest with his quiet words, his slow and deliberate gestures; the acolytes whose movements must surely be synchronized, the words of the Mass, the seminarians who have been absorbed into the liturgy, who are simply part of what is happening. And what is happening? The Sacrifice of Calvary is being rendered present in our midst. There is indeed but one entity here - and that entity is Christ. Hoc est enim Corpus Meum. Christ is present upon the altar, present physically, present in person. The priest raises Christ's true Body for our adoration - the same Body Which was born of the Virgin, Which hung on the Cross as an offering for the salvation of the world, and Which is seated at the right hand of the Father. The priest who elevates the Host is also Christ, and how easy it is to believe this at Mass at Ecône. And the Congregation is Christ too, His Body on earth to build up His kingdom and, when they receive Holy Communion, they are united with Him and with each other as fully and perfectly as it is possible to be. This then is the secret of Ecône, this is the aim and the effect of the formation given there, the complete incorporation into Christ of these young men whose vocation it is to bring Christ to others.

In the pew in front of me there is a young couple with three children. The older girls use their missals with complete facility and make the responses with scarcely a glance at the page. The youngest child, about six years old, has a little book with a simple text and pictures of the action of the Mass. From time to time her sister checks to see that the picture corresponds with what the priest is doing at the altar.

Ite Missa Est says the priest. Deo Gratias comes the response; and what grace and blessings those who have been present at the Mass have to thank God for. Yet this is the Seminary which the French bishops, the Swiss bishops, and now the Vatican are trying to suppress. In principio erat Verbum....Once again the reason why is clear. We are in the midst of a "renewal" - which forbids the reading of the Last Gospel of St. John. Et tux in tenebris lucet, et tenebrae eam non comprehenderunt. Ecône is a light, a light shining in the darkness that is now enveloping the Church, a light which reveals the hollowness of a renewal about which much is spoken but of which nothing is seen, a light which must be extinguished if the shallowness of this renewal is to remain hidden.

Wednesday, 28 May.

Today I am to follow the seminarians throughout their normal program. They rise at 6:00. At 6:30 there is Prime followed by meditation. The Community Mass takes place at 7:15 and breakfast is at 8:00. Lectures begin at 9:00. The next is at 10:00 and the third at 11:00. Each lasts about forty-five minutes. They begin and end with prayer, they are very intensive and demand a high degree of attention. A large proportion of the students are graduates of secular universities and are able to cope with the demanding curriculum without great difficulty. Some of the younger seminarians find it requires an enormous effort - particularly those whose French is not too good when they arrive, as the teaching is conducted through this medium. There are several dozen students whose mother tongue is not French - Germans, Italians, Spaniards, English, Scottish, Australian, and above all American. There are also students from Africa and Asia. The title "International Seminary of St. Pius X" is well merited. I notice that an English student sitting next to me, now in his second year, makes his notes in French. In the Canon Law lecture the subject is that of the Oath. There is a great deal to condense into one lecture and the professor expounds the subject at great speed. The students open their Latin Codes of Canon Law at Canon 316. The difference between an oath and a vow is explained. We soon learn the difference between a iuramentum assertorium and a iuramentum promissorium. Canon follows canon as information is given on witnesses worthy of confidence, when oaths are binding on heirs, licitness, validity, obligation, annulment, dispensation, commutation, complications arising from possible conflicts with civil law. From time to time my eyes wander to the window through which I can see the great waterfall gleaming and shimmering in the bright sun. Soon the sun becomes too bright and the curtains are drawn. The loud-speaker summons an Abbé with a German name to the telephone. The professor is explaining how two apparently contradictory canons are not contradictory at all. Then chimes are heard over the loudspeaker announcing the end of the lecture. After the lecture the students crowd round the professor in friendly and animated conversation. During the lecture the atmosphere was formal and businesslike - afterwards it is all friendliness and informality.

At 12:10 there is Sext and the Angelus followed by lunch. Lunch is followed by recreation and the manual work - which can be synonymous if necessary. All students are asked to report to the vigneron, who has some urgent tasks to be done in the vineyard. There must have been some who when they answered a call to become laborers in the vineyard of the Lord had not expected to do so in quite such a literal manner. But the work is done with a great deal of gusto and a great deal of laughter, and the vigneron seems well pleased as he reappears with wine for those who want it.

Manual work is followed by two hours private study by the students in their rooms or the library - and study they do and study they must. If there is any feeling of anxiety among the seminarians during my visit it concerns their forthcoming examinations rather than the campaign to have the Seminary closed.

At 16:00 Goûter is available for those who want it - a cup of tea or coffee and a piece of bread and jam. Every weekday there is a plainchant practice at 18:00 - which explains the exceptionally high standard of chant in the Seminary. This is followed at 18:30 by a spiritual conference and at 19:00 by one of a variety of spiritual exercises, the Rosary, Benediction, Way of the Cross. Dinner is at 19:30, after which a period of recreation follows until Compline at 20:45. At 22:00 hours lights must be put out and strict silence observed.

It is impossible in any written account even to begin to convey any adequate impression of the atmosphere of Ecône. Serenity is perhaps the best word to describe it. This serenity derives in part from order and from discipline, but it is a discipline which comes from within, a discipline that is freely and consciously accepted, but which is practiced unconsciously and naturally. Above all, the atmosphere comes from the spirit of prayer which pervades the community. If asked to describe Ecône in one phrase there could be no other answer but "a community of prayer." This prayer springs from and is fostered by the deep spirituality evoked by the sublime liturgical worship which permeates the life of the Seminary. Whenever there are no lectures, there are students praying in the chapel or one of the many oratories. Look from any window in the Seminary and you will see soutane-clad figures walking in the vineyards and along the mountain paths saying the rosary. In the long corridors of the Seminary there are some very fine examples of baroque statuary - Our Lady, St. Joseph, the Sacred Heart. Strangely enough they appear in complete harmony with their very modern setting. Votive lights burn before them continually and in the evening there is almost invariably one young man kneeling in prayer before each statue. There is a particularly strong devotion to St. Pius X - the patron of the Seminary - before whose picture, beneath which there is a relic in the wall, a stream of prayers is offered for his intercession. However, although the atmosphere of Ecône is one of sanctity it is certainly not sanctimonious; there is no affectation, no conscious attempt to appear pious. The spirituality is natural and spontaneous and certainly accounts for the cheerfulness, the feeling of joy, which is equally evident and a real indication of true holiness.

Thursday, 29 May.

Thursday, 29 May, is the Feast of Corpus Christi which is prepared for by solemn Vespers on the Wednesday evening. I will not even attempt to describe the beauty, the dignity, the perfection of this service. There is all-night exposition of the Blessed Sacrament and, during the night, I have the good fortune to make a visit to the chapel just before Matins are sung. I am not normally at my most receptive at 3:00 a. m., but I can state in all honesty that the only question I ask myself is not, "When will it end?" but, "Why must it end?" At about 4:00 a. m. I go outside for a few minutes to see the dawn appearing. The mountains are clearly visible, their snow-capped peaks turning red with the first rays of the sun. A chorus of innumerable birds has burst into its own version of Matins, almost drowning the rush of the great waterfall and blending with the sound of the eternal chant which filters through the windows of the chapel. At that moment, the brave new Church of Vatican II seems quite remote, quite unreal, and quite irrelevant with its dialogues and discussions, its committees and commissions, its political priests and emancipated nuns, its smiles and goodwill to all who are not of the Household of the Faith, its harshness and vindictiveness towards any Catholic who is less than enthusiastic about being updated. The great renewal with all its works and pomps seems no more than a memory now of a distant and unpleasant dream. Here is the eternal and unchanging Church. I turn to the ancient house of the Canons of St. Bernard. I would not be surprised to see one or more of them come down the steps at any moment; and should any do so and enter the chapel, then, no matter whether they had returned from fifty, a hundred, two hundred or three hundred years before, they could take their places beside the seminarians and begin singing Matins just as they had done when they lived at the foot of these same mountains.

At about 8:30 on the Feast of Corpus Christi we all leave for the parish church at Riddes. The parish priest has invited all the seminarians to take part in his Corpus Christi procession - a courageous gesture as the Swiss bishops have said there can no longer be any support for the Society of St. Pius X. Fr. Épiney, the Curé, is a very dynamic young priest. He has just built a very large and very modern church constructed of grey concrete. I must confess that I do not much like it, either the exterior or the interior. The church is packed to the doors for Mass with one empty section of seats reserved for the seminarians and their professors. Outside there is an atmosphere of great excitement and anticipation. Two bands are waiting - the Socialist band in blue uniforms and the Fanfare independante in crimson: this, I am told, is the "Radical" band and has Masonic ties. Both are anti-clerical and the Fanfaristes manifest this by remaining outside the church. But virtually everyone in Riddes is devoted to the Curé - and the bandsmen will manifest this devotion by playing in his procession. My friends at the Seminary told me I was in for a surprise. They were correct. The young Curé celebrates a Solemn High Tridentine Mass. The deacon and sub-deacon are seminarians who will be ordained on June 29th. The seminarians sing the Proper - many of the congregation join in. I notice that a good number of the young people present have very new missals - the Daily Missal which is on sale at the Seminary. The Curé gives a passionate sermon on devotion to the Blessed Sacrament which is listened to with rapt attention. He deplores the fact that there are even those who call themselves Catholics but do not kneel to receive their Lord and some who have the temerity to hold out their hands for the Host. The Blessed Sacrament is God; there is no honor, no devotion, no praise too great to offer to Him. We must be prepared to endure any humiliation, persecution even, rather than diminish our reverence for the Blessed Sacrament by one iota. In this sermon and in another when the procession halts for Benediction in the Town Square, he expresses his complete solidarity with the Seminary. He and the people of Riddes know what value to put on the calumnies used against it, no matter from what level they come. Our religion is a religion of love, and in the service of love malice and calumny have no part. There are reporters present. Cameras flash. I learn later that informed opinion is certain that the revenge of the bishops will be swift and severe. The Curé may not even last a week - he will certainly be out within a month. It is a humbling experience to see a young man prepared to make any sacrifice for a matter of principle, a young man who considers that truth takes priority over expediency. My mind immediately turns to another young man who took such a stand nearly 2,000 years ago; and it is this very Man, God the Son made Man, whom the Curé elevates in the Monstrance for our adoration at the start of the procession. Truly, here is Christ carried in the arms of an alter Christus.

The procession is a never to be forgotten event. There were clouds in the sky before Mass; these have vanished now and the sun is blazing down. The Pange Lingua surges upwards. The procession seems to go on for ever. There are the two bands. There are this year's first communicants - the little boys in their long white robes looking as charming as the girls. There is another group of children with baskets of rose petals which they scatter on the road along which God the Son will pass. The children of the village are present in their different age groups. A Marian group carries a statue of Our Lady of Fatima. The seminarians file past together with their professors; their number seems almost endless. An elderly and very poor lady is overcome with emotion. She begins to ask me something. I explain that I am only a visitor. She is delighted to learn that Ecône is known in Britain and that there are five British seminarians there now; and even more delighted to know that this number will be increased in the autumn. "Monsieur," she says, "Monsieur, the seminarians. How they sang at Mass. It was heaven come down to earth." "Heaven come down to earth" - this is it precisely. That is what Ecône is.

Behind the Blessed Sacrament walk the civic dignitaries - they are all there including the Socialist mayor whose devotion to the Curé equals that of any of the Catholic parishioners. Then come the ordinary Faithful - first the men and then the women; thousand upon thousand of them. Many must have come from outside this little town. All ages and all social classes walk together reciting the Rosary as they pass along the streets between houses decorated in honor of the Feast while the bands play and the sun shines. There are practically no spectators - almost everyone is walking in the procession. My American friend and I decide that it is about time we do so too and we join the men. He is a young convert who, after graduating at an American University, has been working for a doctorate in Spain. He must return that night to defend his thesis. He will be entering the Seminary in September. He has only one regret and that is that he cannot enter now.

Eventually the procession returns to the church. There is Benediction yet again. The service ends with the Te Deum during which the seminarians file out. The great hymn of praise continues with almost undiminished vigor. I have to follow it from my missal (to my shame). I notice that most of the congregation know it by heart and sing it from their hearts. Salvum fac populum tuum Domine, et benedic baereditati tuae....We all go out to where the bands are playing and an unlimited supply of wine is available to all. The Curé moves among his people, a true father in God, laughing, smiling, joking, listening. The seminarians are surrounded by admirers and well-wishers. This has been a revelation of what Catholicism can be - how Belloc would have approved! And not least of the laughter and the wine.

I must leave the Seminary after Compline that night to take the train for London. The thought of leaving is painful. My own spiritual life has not simply been deepened and strengthened; it seems to have only just begun. I am just beginning to learn the true meaning of prayer and worship. Compline draws to an end. The lights are extinguished for the Salve Regina. The chant rises effortlessly up to the Blessed Lady who will certainly act as the gracious advocate for the hundred and more young men who are placing their hope in her - exsules filii Evae. Exiles indeed, exiles because their hopes and their beliefs are anathema to the forces holding effective power in the Church today. If they belonged to any of a thousand and one heretical sects they would be smiled upon; if they professed Judaism, the Islamic or the Hindu faith they would be welcomed with open arms; if they were Marxist politicians, then red carpets would be laid before their feet. But they are young men who believe in the traditional and unchanging Catholic Faith; they are young men filled with a burning love for Our Lord and Our Lady; they are young men who have no other desire in life than to bring Christ upon the altar in the sublime setting of the Mass codified by St. Pius V and which has nourished the Faith of so many saints and countless millions of faithful Catholics throughout the centuries. But this rite of Mass is inimical to Protestants. It enshrines and proclaims so clearly the doctrines of the Real Presence and the Real Sacrifice which they do not believe in and will not accept. The Tridentine Mass is an obstacle to Ecumenism. Ecumenism is the new god of the new Church and Ecumenism is a jealous god. The young men who kneel in the shadows before me, pouring out their prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary, evoke the memory of St. Ignatius and his tiny band of followers, who eventually grew into a great army of soldiers of Christ who not only halted the progress of the Protestant heresy but won back millions of souls to God. The forces of Modernism realize too clearly that unless something can be done to prevent these young men from being ordained and going out into the world then the victory of Modernism, which had seemed so secure for a time, will be in serious doubt. The Faithful will rally to these young men, the young in particular, and there will indeed be a renewal; but a Catholic renewal built on the sound basis of the traditional liturgy, traditional teaching, and traditional spirituality of the Church.

Calumny is the weapon which will be used in an attempt to destroy it. More often than not the Society of St. Pius X will be unable to refute these calumnies, but truth is great and must prevail. For those who might be tempted to believe the calumnies I know that every member of this Society, from Archbishop Lefebvre to the youngest seminarians, would have only one answer: "Come and see." Ecône has no secrets, as any visitor will soon find out. If there is anything to be discovered there it is the secret of holiness. I would be surprised to learn of any man of good will who could visit the Seminary and think otherwise.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: econe; seminarians
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To: gbcdoj

It is always a good argument to use the opposition's own words to condemn his side. I used Lara's comment, because he acknowledges--however reluctantly--that disobedience itself is not schism. He covers for the Pope by then saying the schism ANTEDATED the consecrations. But he offered not a shred of evidence for this--nor could he. The Archbishop never denied the Pope, not ever, not even in his notorious Declaration which reads today as a harmless recitation of what is all-too-obvious. The opposite is true, in it he affirmed his loyalty to the pope. The only thing the record shows therefore is continuous and unrelenting Vatican duplicity and injustice.


41 posted on 06/25/2004 9:10:55 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
But the Declaration merely renounces Vatican II and the changes that came in its aftermath.

Yes, it "merely" renounces an entire ecumenical council of the Church as "neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant" and says that it "derives from heresy and ends in heresy". It's really quite impossible to see why the Pope had a right to be concerned about such a "mere" declaration, by a bishop who was going around denouncing the normative Mass of the Church, saying things such as:

the present problem of the Mass is one extremely serious for the Church… All the endeavours to recapture what is being lost, to reorganise, reconstruct and rebuild, have been stricken with sterility, since we no longer have the true source of holiness which is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Now that it has been profaned, it no longer gives grace, it no longer channels grace.

Econe had no books published after 1962 in its library. An ecumenical council of the Church was entirely rejected. Such a seminary can hardly be described as "traditional".

As for schism:

The intent of the act of consecrating bishops is already to create a church with its own hierarchy. In this sense, the consecration of bishops becomes an act of schism. (Cardinal Lara)
We have never wished to belong to this system which calls itself the Conciliar Church, and identifies itself with the Novus Ordo Missae ... The faithful indeed have a strict right to know that the priests who serve them are not in communion with a counterfeit church... (Fr. Schmidberger and many SSPX superiors, on the occasion of the consecrations)

42 posted on 06/25/2004 9:17:50 PM PDT by gbcdoj ( No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: ultima ratio; gbcdoj; BlackElk
So where is this previous refusal to submit to the pope that Cardinal Lara is speaking about? It never happened!     UR, am I misunderstanding here:   your contention is that Lefebvre never refused submission to the pope?

The Next Step to Schism

The SSPX continued as if the Pope had never said a thing. In a way, to the members' minds, he hadn't. Lefebvre was convinced the Roman Curia was misleading Paul VI.... So life at Econe continued as usual.

This, of course, meant preparing seminarians to receive the sacrament of holy orders, with the first class set for ordination during the summer of 1976... "despite the letter from Pope Paul dated 29 June 1975, the entire legal process taken against [the SSPX] had been so irregular that it could not be considered as having been legally suppressed" (Davies, p. 202).

The Vatican disagreed. "You should, at the same time, inform Msgr. Marcel Archbishop Lefebvre that, de mandato special Summa Pontificis, in the present circumstances — and according to the prescriptions of Canon 2373, 1 °, of the [Pio-Benedictine] Code of Canon Law, he must strictly abstain from conferring orders from the moment he receives the present injunction" (Secretariat of State, Prot. N. 307, 554, 12 June 1976, trans. in M. Davies, p. 194).

Lefebvre wrote a public letter beseeching the Pope to have a change of heart. The Pope directed that the archbishop be informed his mind had not changed and reminded Lefebvre that he could not ordain his seminarians.

Lefebvre refused submission to the Pope's order: He ordained the seminarians to the priesthood. The Vatican suspended him. The Holy See also declared that, "those who have been ordained are ipso facto suspended from the order received, and, if they were to exercise it, they would be in an irregular and criminal situation" (R. Panciroli, press conference, July 1, 1976, trans. in M. Davies, p. 216).

On July 29, 1976, the Pope suspended Lefebvre a divines. According to canonist Peter Vere, this meant Lefebvre was "now forbidden by the Holy See from the exercise of holy orders, a prohibition reserved to the Holy Father personally. In other words, his suspension was now perpetual until its absolution and applicable to more than simply the ordination of seminarians to major orders" (Vere and Woestman, op. cit.). Lefebvre said, "This conciliar church is schismatic because it has taken as the basis for its updating principles opposed to those of the Catholic Church . . . The church that affirms errors like these is both schismatic and heretical. This conciliar church is just not Catholic."

Things were relatively quiet after this, if you can call "quiet" the intemperate things the archbishop was saying about the Pope and the Church. On August 4, 1976, for instance, Lefebvre said, "All those who cooperate in the application of this upheaval, accept and adhere to this new conciliar church . . . enter into schism" (Fr. Noel Barbara, Econe Full Stop, Fortes in Fides [www. the-pope. com /econefs. html]). This is the height of irony when one considers the definition of schism: The refusal of submission to the Roman pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2089, cf. CIC, can. 751).


43 posted on 06/25/2004 9:28:02 PM PDT by GirlShortstop ( O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this...)
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To: gbcdoj

There is nothing binding in anything Vatican II decreed--so it can hardly be used as a pretext for claiming someone is in schism. Nor did Vatican II envisage anything so monstrous as what followed in its aftermath--the virtual annihilation of Catholic Tradition everywhere.

As for equating Lara's comments with those of Schmidberger, it is the latter who comes off as speaking truly, not Lara. A counterfeit Church is one which renounces its own past and the Magisterium of previous popes and councils. Insofar as there are bishops who do this--and their name is legion today--then they represent what is not authentically Catholic and is outside of the true Church.

But even Lara must know he is lying when he says there was an intention by the Archbishop to create a new church. SSPX created nothing except bishops--everything else was as it was--same Mass, same doctrines, same Pope, same everything. The only thing it leaves out are the NOVELTIES that contravene the faith and which were designed to destroy Catholic Tradition. Nothing has been rejected except what cannot ever be binding.


44 posted on 06/25/2004 9:38:15 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: GirlShortstop
According to canonist Peter Vere,...

Peter Vere?

That same former Satanist who butchered his first born child?

45 posted on 06/25/2004 9:43:27 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: GirlShortstop

The pope is not a god. He cannot order the destruction of God's Church. His whim is not the law of the Church. In fact, its laws and precepts are the reason for his authority in the first place. He is given power precisely to sustain them and to protect the deposit of faith. He cannot do as he wishes with his subordinates, without just cause. In this he is subject to Church canons, as is anyone else, since they are based on Divine Law. He must therefore act justly, not as a tyrant.

We say the pope is supreme. But what does that mean? We say the Supreme Court is the supreme law of the land also. But we don't believe the Supreme Court has a right to act as it pleases, to depart from its own limitations, to act as chief executive, for instance. We recognize in the word "supreme" certain limits. So too with the pope. There are limits to his authority. He abuses his power when he exceeds these limits--as he would if he acted unjustly.


46 posted on 06/25/2004 9:52:02 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Land of the Irish
That same former Satanist who butchered his first born child?

That's terrible.  If what Mr. Vere says is true, it shouldn't, and can't be ignored... otherwise, to be consistent, we'd have to ignore all words and works of the man formerly known as Saul, who presided over Stephen's slaying.  Right?
47 posted on 06/25/2004 9:57:27 PM PDT by GirlShortstop ( O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this...)
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To: ultima ratio

I wrote this on another thread regarding the mass rejection of Trent by bishops. I believe it's an accurate summary of the present situation:

"The truth is that we are living in a time when two Churches are co-existing--a false and a true one. JPII is pope of both the old and the new religions. One denies Catholicism's basic tenets--of a propitiatory sacrifice, of a Real Presence, of a sacrificial priesthood--and does all it can to destroy these principles without coming right out and saying this is what it intends; the other side affirms the ancient teachings. One side is top-heavy with apostate bishops who side with Luther; the other side has little official authority, but challenges the hierarchy in a grass-roots movement that is growing in force. The two Churches are heading for a show-down--and the Pope is more or less playing it down the middle, siding with Tradition in his official writings, but instituting policies designed to support its destruction."


48 posted on 06/25/2004 10:06:56 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
There are limits to his authority. He abuses his power when he exceeds these limits--as he would if he acted unjustly.

I understand perfectly well the supreme theory you've offered.  :-)    Here's where you lost me though:  my question was specific, and your answer was not.  Care to clarify with specifics?

FReegards!
49 posted on 06/25/2004 10:09:11 PM PDT by GirlShortstop ( O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this...)
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To: GirlShortstop
That's terrible.

I agree! Filicide is terrible.

50 posted on 06/25/2004 10:14:34 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: ultima ratio
JPII is pope of both the old and the new religions. One denies Catholicism's basic tenets--of a propitiatory sacrifice, of a Real Presence, of a sacrificial priesthood--and does all it can to destroy these principles...  

You say "siding with Tradition in his official writings, but instituting policies designed to support its destruction.".  Can you not see how that can be construed as calling JPII a liar?  


51 posted on 06/25/2004 10:28:53 PM PDT by GirlShortstop ( O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this...)
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To: GirlShortstop; gbcdoj

Here is the rest of the Davies quote:


"It would be possible to devote endless pages to discussing the merits of each position but even it if is conceded, for the sake of argument, that the Vatican had the law upon its side it did not follow that the Archbishop was necessarily in the wrong. There are many orthodox Catholics who evade the necessity of considering the Archbishop's case on its merits by reducing the entire question to one of legality. 'Archbishop Lefebvre is in breach of Canon Law,' they argue, 'therefore he is wrong.'

"At the risk of laboring a point which has probably been made sufficiently clear already, the Law is at the service of the Faith. It is intended to uphold the Faith and not to undermine it. Given that the manner in which the case against the Archbishop was conducted constituted an abuse of power, then he was entitled to resist.

"Archbishop Lefebvre decided that he could best serve the Church by ordaining his seminarians and incardinating them into the Society of St. Pius x. The question which no Cathodic of integrity can evade trying to answer honestly, is whether this decision constitutes inexcusable defiance of papal authority or a legitimate act of resistance to an abuse of power. The subsequent action taken against the Archbishop must be assessed in the light of the answer given to this question. Sanctions were imposed upon him by the Vatican; they will be detailed in their chronological sequence. Once again, the Archbishop decided to ignore them as they were simply a consequence of his refusal to accept the original command to close his Seminary. Even his worst enemies can-not accuse Mgr .Lefebvre of a lack of logic or consistency. His position is based upon one fundamental axiom: the action taken against him violates either Ecclesiastical or Natural Law, possibly both. If he is correct then his subsequent actions can be justified and the legality or illegality of subsequent Vatican decisions is irrelevant. Those who condemn the Archbishop invariably ignore this fundamental axiom and concentrate upon the legal minutiae of the subsequent sanctions. Those who support the Archbishop will do so most effectively by continually redirecting attention to this axiom rather than allowing themselves to be diverted into futile and endless discussion on these legal minutiae. It is also essential to cite the controversy within the context of the entire "Conciliar Church " where not simply any and every ecclesiastical law can be defied with impunity by Liberals but any and every article of the Catholic Faith can be denied with equal impunity .Reduced to its simplest terms, the true problem posed by the drama of Econe is not whether Archbishop Lefebvre is right to defy the Vatican and continue ordaining priests but whether the Vatican is right to order the most orthodox and flourishing Seminary in the West to close."




52 posted on 06/25/2004 10:30:22 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: GirlShortstop

You may think I am calling the Pope a liar. But I am simply stating the facts. They speak for themselves. He says one thing, then does another. What are we to think? His outdoor papal Masses have caused grave scandal--and have been written about in the secular press. Sacred Hosts are passed around like potato chips, falling into the ground, getting trampled underfoot. Even worse things happen. Yet he lectures the world on liturgical abuses. He writes to the bishops that prohibiting kneeling for Communion would contribute to a diminution of faith in the dogma on the Real Presence--then signs onto it anyway. How does this protect the treasury of faith--which is his primary job, after all.

I just cite the facts--make of them what you will.


53 posted on 06/25/2004 10:38:03 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Land of the Irish

Pete Vere or Harry Potter?

54 posted on 06/25/2004 10:41:28 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: GirlShortstop

The "supreme theory" is not mine. Please read the article on Ecclesiastical Abuse of Power which I have posted. This is the considered opinion of all the best theologians in the Church from time immemorial. The reason the pope's authority is not supreme is that he must, above all, obey the Divine Law which comes from God and on which Church law is based. That is to say, he must act justly in his dealings with others.


55 posted on 06/25/2004 10:44:26 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: GirlShortstop; gbcdoj

By the way, in this matter of justice, it is not just for a pope to let liberal bishops deny the truths of the Gospels, deny the decrees of the Council of Trent, affirm Martin Luther while denying the teachings of preconciliar popes--then turn around and pounce on a single traditional bishop for defending Catholic Tradition. That is injustice of an obvious sort. What is most galling is it is done by deceit. Neither popes nor cardinals will admit the truth--that it is Traditional Catholicism which they oppose.


56 posted on 06/25/2004 10:51:46 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: GirlShortstop
Currently, Pete is married to his college sweetheart Sonya, and they have one child (but are hoping God will send them more!)

What a pathetic bio! Pete and his college sweetheart murdered their first child. They don't have "one child". They have two children, the first was butchered by his parents, and to this day, those parents don't acknowledge that murdered baby as one of their own children.

Yet they are they are hoping God will send them more!

57 posted on 06/25/2004 11:18:27 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: ultima ratio

The reason the pope's authority is not supreme=the reason the pope'a authority is not supreme in the sense you suppose...


58 posted on 06/26/2004 1:38:05 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Land of the Irish; ultima ratio

Irish, Thanks for the ping. I yearn to find a similar Catholic atmosphere here in the US.

Ultima, Great article.

Question: Any recommendations for a CD with the Latin Chants in it which could be used to learn?


59 posted on 06/26/2004 1:49:07 AM PDT by Smocker
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