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Sacred Scripture and Outside the Church There is NO Salvation
Catholic Family News ^ | June 2004 | Jacob Michael

Posted on 05/27/2004 7:10:58 AM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus: outside the Church, there is no salvation. This “hard saying” has been consistently taught as a dogma of the Faith from the very inception of the Church — affirmed by the Gospels and epistles, insisted on by the early Church Fathers, and later solemnly defined in holy councils and papal statements.

Naturally, it is the primary dogma being attacked today, because the modern Creed of the unwashed masses (and that includes liberal Protestants and Catholics) has only one article of faith: I believe in tolerance and respect for every religion.

In an age where truth is said to be relative, where “what’s right for you is right for you, what’s right for me is right for me,” and where intolerance is the only mortal sin, the dogma that says “Outside the Church there is no salvation” sticks out like a sore thumb.

“How intolerant! How exclusivist! You mean to tell me that you think your religion has a monopoly on truth? That only Catholics have it all right?”

“No one religion has a monopoly on truth — every religion has some truth, and every religion has some error. We’re only humans, after all, and it’s unrealistic to think that any one group could be entirely free from misconceptions about Who God is and what He expects of us.”

“In the end, God is not going to give us theological entrance exams before we can get into Heaven — we’ll be judged on how we treated the sick, the hungry, the poor, and not on how correct our theology was. It doesn’t matter what you believe, just how you act.”

Do those words sound at all familiar? They certainly sound familiar to me, because those are the very words that came out of my mouth on a fairly regular basis some five-or-so years ago. Those words summarize the overwhelmingly, universally accepted understanding of religion and faith — just do whatever makes you feel good, and don’t judge anyone else.

What saith the Scriptures? Are all religions equal? Does it really matter what you believe? Is there a dichotomy between the Christ you worship and the Church to which you belong? Some say that faith in Christ is all that matters, not what denomination you belong to — as though Christ is over here in this category, and the Church is over there in that category, as sort of an irrelevant aside.

As I have written in past articles, the Gospel is more than just “Christ on the Cross.” The Gospel is the restoration of the kingdom of David — which kingdom is the Catholic Church — and the Cross is the royal enthronement of Our King.

There is no need to restate all of the proofs that I have written about before — I will simply stipulate that the Church (and a proper understanding of the Church) is absolutely central to the Gospel.

What does Scripture teach us about the necessity of belonging to the Church, or about the dogma “outside the Church there is no salvation”?

We may begin with the passage from St. Matthew’s Gospel, which every Catholic should know by heart:

“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18)

This is a singular point: there are two kingdoms, and only two. One is the kingdom of God (the Church) and the other is the kingdom of Satan. If you do not belong to one, you belong to the other, as Our Lord implied:

“He that is not with Me is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.” (Luke 11:23)

This verse puts the lie to the false sentiment that all denominations (Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Anglican, Congregational, Free Methodist, etc.) are equally doing the work of Christ and furthering the spread of the kingdom. If they are not part of the one Church that Christ founded (and He did say that He would build His “Church,” singular, not “churches”), then they scatter against Him and do not gather with Him.

This understanding is so critical, yet so misunderstood and ignored by so- called “bible Christians” (and many Catholics) in our day. From the very beginning, Christ founded only one Church, and entrusted to it, in the words of St. Paul:

“... one faith, one baptism.” (Eph. 4:5)

The utter uniqueness of this Church should be beyond debate. We have thus far seen nothing but singularity: one Church, one faith, one baptism. There is no room here for multiple “churches” teaching multiple disparate doctrines.

So important is holding fast to this “one faith,” that Our Lord, St. Paul, and St. John all admonish us to steer clear of those who would tamper with the faith, and to consider them, not as Christian equals, but as pagans:

“And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” (Matt. 18:17)

“A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid.” (Titus 3:10)

“If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you.” (2 John 10)

“But though we, or an Angel from Heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.” (Gal. 1:8)

Is this exclusivist and intolerant? Absolutely — but why would you expect anything different? Is this not the very nature of God, and are not these sentiments — written by the Apostles — the very same as those of the God Who said:

“I the Lord, this is My name: I will not give My glory to another ...” (Is. 42:8)

“For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God ...” (Dt. 5:9)

“The Lord His name is jealous, He is a jealous God.” (Ex. 34:14)

From the absolute uniqueness and singularity of God, there springs forth an absolutely exclusive truth, revealed unto men by an absolutely unique and singular Divine Man, and entrusted exclusively to His singular and unique Church. Or, to trace it backwards, there is only one faith, found in one Church, with one baptism, entrusted to the Church by Her one Lord, the one and only-begotten Son of the One True God. To introduce diversity at any point in this catena is to destroy the whole.

And what of the “one baptism”? This, too, is a testament to the necessity of belonging to the one true Church. How are we incorporated into this Church?

“For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body ...” (1 Cor. 12:13)

It is through the sacrament of that “one baptism” that we are made members of the One Church. And of this baptism, it is said:

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ...” (Mark 16:16)

“Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

To say that one must be baptized for salvation is to say that one must be inside the Church to be saved, for baptism is what incorporates us into the Church. If baptism is necessary for salvation, and the Church is necessary for baptism, then the Church is necessary for salvation, and being “outside the Church” is to endanger one’s eternal soul.

We need look no further than the prophecy of Daniel to find some identifying marks of this one Church:

“... the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth ... the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never by destroyed, and His kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people: and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms: and itself shall stand for ever.” (Dan. 2:35, 44)

In these two verses, the prophet Daniel reveals to us all at once the visibility, universality, and immutability of the true Church. Visibility, because this kingdom fills “the whole earth” and is as “a great mountain” — who has ever heard of a mountain that was so great as to fill the entire earth and yet remain invisible? Universality, because this kingdom fills “the whole earth,” and conquers over “all these kingdoms” of the earth. Immutability, because this kingdom “shall stand forever.”

What more proof do we need that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ? Has there ever been another Church that has filled the whole earth, that has been visible for all to see, that had its inception during the days of the Roman Empire (Daniel says this kingdom will be established “in the days of those kingdoms,” the last of which was the Roman Empire in the 1st Century), and that has remained upon the earth ever since that time?

Does anyone require still further proof that the Church which was founded in the Apostolic times was, in fact, the Catholic Church?

Then hear Pope St. Clement of Rome (d. A.D. 98/101) who says that in this Church the Apostles “knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the bishop,” and so they “appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.” (Letter to the Corinthians, XLIV)

Hear the account of the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (d. A.D. 155), after which the Christians “took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels … and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together … the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom.” (The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, XVIII)

Hear St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), who calls the Holy Eucharist the “medicine of immortality, and the antidote which prevents us from dying, but a cleansing remedy driving away evil, [which causes] that we should live in God through Jesus Christ.” (Epistle to the Ephesians, XX)

Hear the same St. Ignatius tell us, “As therefore the Lord does nothing without the Father ... so do ye, neither presbyter, nor deacon, nor layman, do anything without the bishop,” and hear him exhort us, “Do ye all, as one man, run together into the temple of God, as unto one altar, to one Jesus Christ, the High Priest of the unbegotten God.” (Epistle to the Magnesians, VII)

Hear St. Justin Martyr explain the early rites of Baptism, in which sinners “are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated ... in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed.” (First Apology, LXI)

Hear the same St. Justin Martyr (d. A.D. 130) explain the early Eucharistic Sacrifice, “of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins.” He tells us that “not as common bread and common drink do we receive these, but ... we [have] been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word … is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” (First Apology, LXVI)

Hear St. Irenaeus of Lyons (d. A.D. 202), who says that heretics “object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth,” and that “these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.” (Against Heresies, Book III, II, 2)

Finally, hear this same St. Irenaeus tell us that we may “put to confusion all those who ... assemble in unauthorized meetings, by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul,” and that “it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority.” (Against Heresies, Book III, III, 2)

All of these writings date back as early as the late 1st Century, and none of them are dated later than the late 2nd Century. Who can observe these facts and deny that the Apostolic Church was anything but Catholic, both in belief and in practice? I submit to you that only the most bereft of good will and intellectual honesty can read these writings and still not conclude that the Holy Catholic Church is the one true Church.

This is the “faith once delivered to the saints” that St. Jude referred to, the detractors of which “have perished in the contradiction of Core.” (Jude 3, 11) You may remember that Core raised up a rebellion against God’s appointed vicar (Moses), reasoning that “all the multitude consisteth of holy ones, and the Lord is among them: Why lift you up yourselves above the people of the Lord?” (Num. 16:3) For this rebellion against the divinely constituted authority, the earth opened up and swallowed Core and his band, who all “went down alive into hell, the ground closing upon them.” (vs. 31-33)

Is there salvation outside the Church? Ask Core and his followers, or ask St. Jude, who compared the detractors of the Holy Faith to Core, and promised them a similar fate.

No, it is a dogma of the faith, well attested by Scripture, that there is only one Church, which is entered into by one baptism, and which professes only one faith. Those who reject this Church necessarily reject the “one faith,” and are declared by St. Paul to be “heretics” who are “anathema”.

Yes, it is an intolerant and exclusive position, but it is divinely revealed truth, which is ours to adhere to and not to alter. The Church is exclusive, and salvation is difficult to obtain, as Our Lord taught:

“And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But He said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:23-24)

We may conclude with the words of The Athanasian Creed written in the 4th Century, words that express the unchanging truth regarding the Catholic Church:

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.”


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; ecclesiam; ecumenism; extra; nullam; salus; truth
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To: William Terrell
I want a public proclamation that those souls that don't belong to the Roman Catholic Church, in clear words, like "yes" or "no", are condemed to Hell by that ommission.

Then you want what is not possible. I tremble at the thought of a God who doesn't judge us on an individual basis.

SD

161 posted on 05/27/2004 2:03:39 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Fifthmark
Emphasis on "may."

Yes.

SD

162 posted on 05/27/2004 2:04:49 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: William Terrell
I want a public proclamation that those souls that don't belong to the Roman Catholic Church, in clear words, like "yes" or "no", are condemed to Hell by that ommission.

No souls belong to the Church, they belong to Christ. The Church simply and beautifully guides those souls to Him.

163 posted on 05/27/2004 2:07:14 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator
So you don't believe that Christ founded a Church in Matthew 16:18? You see "church" as simply a body of believers? Is that correct?

There is no controversy between Jesus' establishment of the church (per Matthew 16:18) and the description of the nature of the church given later by Peter and Paul.

164 posted on 05/27/2004 2:07:30 PM PDT by Quester
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To: redeemed_by_His_blood; SoothingDave
Then, I am sorry. I'm forced to reject the pronouncements of an organizaton so weak that its substance can be eaten out by homosexuality and pedophilia, unstopped by authority, and righteously question whether such an organization has any power at all, much less to condem one of the Lord God's souls.

The arrogance.

165 posted on 05/27/2004 2:10:27 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Quester
There is no controversy between Jesus' establishment of the church (per Matthew 16:18) and the description of the nature of the church given later by Peter and Paul.

Glad to hear it, so then you believe in a visible institution, gifted with divine assurance of perfection and authority that continues to this day?

166 posted on 05/27/2004 2:13:11 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: William Terrell
The promise was that the gates of hell would not prevail, not that they would not try.

Don't let the smoke obscure your view.

167 posted on 05/27/2004 2:15:10 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator

what is "Church"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Where any two of you agree
Matt.18

[15] "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
[16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[19] Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

[20] For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."


168 posted on 05/27/2004 2:15:13 PM PDT by DAVEY CROCKETT (There is no such thing as coincidence, GOD is in control.)
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To: SoothingDave
Then if a public proclamation can't be issued, a mealymouthed working around it but to the same end is less than credible.

169 posted on 05/27/2004 2:16:58 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Fifthmark; All

You know where that Scripture is found.

You seem to be ignorant of these. Which word(s) do you not understand?




Galatians 1:14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(Whole Chapter: Colossians 2 In context: Colossians 2:7-9)

1 Peter 1:18
Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
(Whole Chapter: 1 Peter 1 In context: 1 Peter 1:17-19)




CHRIST'S STATEMENTS ABOUT SUCH:

Matthew 15:2
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 15 In context: Matthew 15:1-3)

Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 15 In context: Matthew 15:2-4)

Matthew 15:6
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 15 In context: Matthew 15:5-7)

Mark 7:3
For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
(Whole Chapter: Mark 7 In context: Mark 7:2-4)

Mark 7:5
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not your disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
(Whole Chapter: Mark 7 In context: Mark 7:4-6)

Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do.
(Whole Chapter: Mark 7 In context: Mark 7:7-9)

Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
(Whole Chapter: Mark 7 In context: Mark 7:8-10)

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which you have delivered: and many such like things do you.
(Whole Chapter: Mark 7 In context: Mark 7:12-14)

Given the sizeable number of Scriptures strongly exhorting AGAINST tradition(s) and especially traditions of man . . . one would think that a wise person would temper considerably any support for even kosher traditions.

But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The Roman group glories in it in layer up on layer of gold leaf, pomp and circumstance.

THEN they have the audacity to claim it's all necessary for SALVATION!

What's that Scripture about doctrines of demons?


170 posted on 05/27/2004 2:17:13 PM PDT by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: DAVEY CROCKETT
So if there is not agreement then there is no Church? If a five point Calvinist and a Methodist are in a room, is that the "Church"
171 posted on 05/27/2004 2:17:16 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator
No souls belong to the Church, they belong to Christ. The Church simply and beautifully guides those souls to Him.

If a soul is condemed because the carrier thereof is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, as this tract appears to say, I see no beautiful guidance in it. And no, any soul that could be thus condemed by an organization would not, by that very alleged fact, belong to Christ.

172 posted on 05/27/2004 2:21:56 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: SoothingDave
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Was this Paul's opinion, or was he expecting that those in Corinth would recognize his authority as a teacher?

Were those in Corinth free as Christians to reject Paul and decide all matters for themselves? Is that the model of ecclesial authority one finds inherent in the New Testament?


Of course, Paul expected that those in Corinth would respect his authority as a teacher.

And, yet, he commended the Bereans for verifying his teaching by the scriptures.
Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Such is in accord with Jesus' own command to search the scriptures for His truth.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

173 posted on 05/27/2004 2:29:09 PM PDT by Quester
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To: conservonator

And now each "believer" is made perfect in his or her faith?
Yes
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What evidence do you have that the Holy Spirit guides all "believers".
The Holy Spirit only guides if a person is willing. GOD lets all have free will and a choice to chose HIM.
Acts 1:[8] But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama'ria and to the end of the earth."
[16] "Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And if He does, why the plethora of beliefs?
Freewill, human nature...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Holy Spirit does guide us, either through His Church or to His Church and always in His own time His manner and for His own purpose.
Absolutely:)


174 posted on 05/27/2004 2:31:03 PM PDT by DAVEY CROCKETT (There is no such thing as coincidence, GOD is in control.)
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To: William Terrell
If a soul is condemed because the carrier thereof is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, as this tract appears to say, I see no beautiful guidance in it. And no, any soul that could be thus condemed by an organization would not, by that very alleged fact, belong to Christ.

You see no beautiful guidance because you don't want to, not because it's not there. You need to look past the veneer of the human administration to see the beauty, which is the truth of Christ. It's easy to get hung up on "bad popes", "pedophile priests" and a million other sins that members of the Church have committed and say "look at the corrupt nature of the 'church'" and feel comfortable in looking no further. Don't be deceived, look further. Don't take my word for it, look for your self, look deep and look long and look hard. You might be surprised at what the Church is and what it is not, what it teaches and what it does not.

175 posted on 05/27/2004 2:31:57 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: William Terrell

Christ looked pretty weak dragging His blood-stained Cross to Calvary, but He was still God.


176 posted on 05/27/2004 2:32:22 PM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: asformeandformyhouse
On the subject of St. John and bishops:

1 At that time the apostle and evangelist John, the one whom Jesus loved, was still living in Asia, and governing the churches of that region, having returned after the death of Domitian from his exile on the island.178

2 And that he was still alive at that time179 may be established by the testimony of two witnesses. They should be trustworthy who have maintained the orthodoxy of the Church; and such indeed were Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria.180

3 The former in the second book of his work Against Heresies, writes as follows:181 "And all the elders that associated with John the disciple of the Lord in Asia bear witness that John delivered it to them. For he remained among them until the time of Trajan."182

4 And in the third book of the same work he attests the same thing in the following words:183 "But the church in Ephesus also, which was founded by Paul, and where John remained until the time of Trajan, is a faithful witness of the apostolic tradition."

5 Clement likewise in his book entitled What Rich Man can be saved?184 indicates the time,185 and subjoins a narrative which is most attractive to those that enjoy hearing what is beautiful and profitable. Take and read the account which rums as follows:186 "Listen to a tale, which is not a mere tale, but a narrative187 concerning John the apostle, which has been handed down and treasured up in memory. For when, after the tyrant's death,188 he returned from the isle of Patmos to Ephesus, he went away upon their invitation to the neighboring territories of the Gentiles, to appoint bishops in some places, in other places to set in order whole churches, elsewhere to choose to the ministry some one189 of those that were pointed out by the Spirit.

7 When he had come to one of the cities not far away (the name of which is given by some190 ), and had consoled the brethren in other matters, he finally turned to the bishop that had been appointed, and seeing a youth of powerful physique, of pleasing appearance, and of ardent temperament, he said, `This one I commit to thee in all earnestness in the presence of the Church and with Christ as witness.' And when the bishop had accepted the Charge and had promised all, he repeated the same injunction with an appeal to the same witnesses, and then departed for Ephesus.

8 But the presbyter191 taking home the youth committed to him, reared, kept, cherished, and finally baptized192 him. After this he relaxed his stricter care and watchfulness, with the idea that in putting upon him the seal of the Lord193 he had given him a perfect protection.

9 But some youths of his own age, idle and dissolute, and accustomed to evil practices, corrupted him when he was thus prematurely freed from restraint. At first they enticed him by costly entertainments; then, when they went forth at night for robbery, they took him with them, and finally they demanded that he should unite with them in some greater crime.

10 He gradually became accustomed to such practices, and on account of the positiveness of his character,194 leaving the right path, and taking the bit in his teeth like a hard-mouthed and powerful horse, he rushed the more violently down into the depths.

11 And finally despairing of salvation in God, he no longer meditated what was insignificant, but having committed some great crime, since he was now lost once for all, he expected to suffer a like fate with the rest. Taking them, therefore, and forming a band of robbers, he became a bold bandit-chief, the most violent, most bloody, most cruel of them all.

12 Time passed, and some necessity having arisen, they sent for John. But he, when he had set in order the other matters on account of which he had come, said, `Come, O bishop, restore us the deposit which both I and Christ committed to thee, the church, over which thou presidest, being witness.'

13 But the bishop was at first confounded, thinking that he was falsely charged in regard to money which he had not received, and he could neither believe the accusation respecting what he had not, nor could he disbelieve John. But when he said, `I demand the young man and the soul of the brother,' the old man, groaning deeply and at the same time bursting into tears, said, `He is dead.' `How and what kind of death?' `He is dead to God,' he said; `for he turned wicked and abandoned, and at last a robber. And now, instead of the church, he haunts the mountain with a band like himself.'

14 But the Apostle rent his clothes, and beating his head with great lamentation, he said, `A fine guard I left for a brother's soul! But let a horse be brought me, and let some one show me the way.' He rode away from the church just as he was, and coming to the place, he was taken prisoner by the robbers' outpost.

15 He, however, neither fled nor made entreaty, but cried out, `For this did I come; lead me to your captain.'

16 The latter, meanwhile, was waiting, armed as he was. But when he recognized John approaching, he turned in shame to flee.

17 But John, forgetting his age, pursued him with all his might, crying out, `Why, my son, dost thou flee from me, thine own father, unarmed, aged? Pity me, my son; fear not; thou hast still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for thee. If need be, I will willingly endure thy death as the Lord suffered death for us. For thee will I give up my life. Stand, believe; Christ hath sent me.'

18 And he, when he heard, first stopped and looked down; then he threw away his arms, and then trembled and wept bitterly. And when the old man approached, he embraced him, making confession with lamentations as he was able, baptizing himself a second time with tears, and concealing only his right hand.

19 But John, pledging himself, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness with the Saviour, besought him, fell upon his knees, kissed his right hand itself as if now purified by repentance, and led him back to the church. And making intercession for him with copious prayers, and struggling together with him in continual fastings, and subduing his mind by various utterances, he did not depart, as they say, until he had restored him to the church, furnishing a great example of true repentance and a great proof of regeneration, a trophy of a visible resurrection." (Eusebius of Caesarea, "Ecclesiastical History" III, XXIII)

Clearly here the presbyter-bishop has been charged with control over the church: "When he had come to one of the cities not far away ... he finally turned to the bishop that had been appointed ..."

The seven angels of the churches which St. John addresses in his Revelation would seem to be bishops as well - this is compatible with the fact that only 10 years after St. John's death we have clear testimonies of the existence of a separate episcopate from St. Ignatius.

Also, St. Hegesippus in his Chronicles [180 AD] reports that there was a succession of bishops in Rome - this catalogue was used by various later writers (cf. Catholic Encyclopedia, "St. Hegesippus") and clearly indicates the existence of the episcopate in Apostolic times, while St. John still lived in Ephesus. He also records this (an account which he was well-placed to know as he was a Hebrew):

And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon, the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord. Therefore, they called the Church a virgin, for it was not yet corrupted by vain discourses. (quoted in Eusebius, ibid., IV, XXII)

177 posted on 05/27/2004 2:33:33 PM PDT by gbcdoj (in mundo pressuram habetis, sed confidite, ego vici mundum)
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To: Quix

When cornered, post a glut of Scriptural quotes: protestant argument technique #4,384. You still seem to have no answer for who, to this day, carries on the Traditions of the Apostles...especially those handed down BY WORD.


178 posted on 05/27/2004 2:35:11 PM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: sandyeggo

Uncials, and Codex... Mean anything to anyone? Codex Vaticanus, dating around 350.A.D., shortly after Nero burned Rome, and then blamed it on the Christians. The Romans weren't too fond of Christ then, now were they?


179 posted on 05/27/2004 2:38:06 PM PDT by in2itagin (THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME)
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To: William Terrell
Then if a public proclamation can't be issued, a mealymouthed working around it but to the same end is less than credible.

The public statement has already been made. There's just one catch: you have to try to comprehend it. It's not a yes or no thing. Sometimes life is tough.

The Church of God subsists in the Catholic Church. Discovering the meaning of "subsists" is an exercise for the reader.

SD

180 posted on 05/27/2004 2:38:29 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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